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The Argument Against Arguing Against Religion

 
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 10:46 pm
aktorist Wrote:

Quote:
I am speaking about the world.

FAULTY BELIEFS MAKE A FAULTY WORLD

And of course, your faith is faulty. All faiths are faulty.


And you, of course, can prove this?
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:04 pm
Quote:

Hold up a second though. Haven't we been around this mountain before? I can't remember if it was you or not though. Do you believe the only way to find truth is through scientific methods?

Humor me and tell me another way to get true results?
What else have we got?
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:13 pm
LOL ok... ummm... (trying to pull a rabbit out of my hat here....)

Dok, I don't think there's any magic answers to life. I believe in science. I believe in the proof it offers most of the time. Though I haven't studied science too much to be honest. I do believe experience has it's role though.

(heph ducks)

The reason I think a lot of people don't like this answer is that there's no way to scientifically prove experience. So therefore there's no explination. Even though we all have it. It becomes invalid because science cannot explain it with a formula. Unless I've totally missed something here. Please enlighten me if I have....
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:16 pm
hephzibah wrote:
Phoenix thank you but I come before all of you now with my head hung in shame.

I realize now my own blaring imperfections displayed for all the world to see.

I'm a hypocrite of the worst kind.

The very thing I accuse real life of doing is the exact thing I just did to him.

No respect. No integrity. Only the purpose of being right and making sure he knew that regardless of how badly I had to brow beat him to get the point.

I preach a sermon to christians about not going around hurting people just because they disagree with you. Then I turn around and hurt someone just to get my point across.

In the famous words I myself have used... two wrongs don't make a right.

I've been reminded of those words several times since this started, but I was so bent on getting my point across I couldn't hear it. I didn't want to hear it, because I thought, "darn it I know I'm right and that's all that matters."

I'm so sorry real life. You didn't deserve that.

I'm so sorry to you all for being such a poor example of the things I say I believe.

Please forgive me.


I do.

I'm a big boy and you're not the first to tell me off or to assume I didn't care because I differ with them. And you won't be the last.

I was not offended and am not upset with you in the least.
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:17 pm
well, 'experience' isn't some big nebulous entity. It is a collection of individual experiences. Each 'experience' was handled differently.
You can learn things in retrospect by observing these experiences, but in doing so you are employing that pesky old scientific method again.
Hard to escape it....
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:18 pm
Thank you real life.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:22 pm
Doktor S wrote:
well, 'experience' isn't some big nebulous entity. It is a collection of individual experiences. Each 'experience' was handled differently.
You can learn things in retrospect by observing these experiences, but in doing so you are employing that pesky old scientific method again.
Hard to escape it....


How so dok? The funny thing about life is that while sometimes by doing the same thing twice you may get the same result yet it doesn't always work that way. There are no guaranteed results. Especially when dealing with people.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:25 pm
Doktor S wrote:
Quote:

Hold up a second though. Haven't we been around this mountain before? I can't remember if it was you or not though. Do you believe the only way to find truth is through scientific methods?

Humor me and tell me another way to get true results?
What else have we got?
Humor away, that I can do! Even though science may call it the Empirical Method, the fact of the matter remains that certain so-called "truths" can be discovered by simple trial and error, without rationality or scientific methodology. Example: some so-called "primitive medicines".
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:27 pm
You can't possibly scientifically prove many of the things I did today.

No one but I was there to observe them and they won't be repeated. So if you don't take my word for it, what have you got?

Obviously the scientific method is not the only route to establish truth.

Our courts of law, for instance, have a much different method and standard for proof than does a scientific investigation.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:30 pm
real life wrote:
You can't possibly scientifically prove many of the things I did today.
In what sense could I not scientifically prove many of the things you did today if I was properly prepared in advance? Do you perceive it a fault of science that it must be properly prepared?
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:32 pm
People are very hard to predict, but not so hard as you might think.
Knowledge of human psychology and behavior can yeild all sorts of neat acurate predictions. I recomend reading some Dr.Alfred Adler and Dr. Abraham Maslow for insight.
Again, it comes down to using acurate methods to acheive acurate results.
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:32 pm
He already answered that chumly:

Quote:
No one but I was there to observe them and they won't be repeated.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:34 pm
Doktor S wrote:
People are very hard to predict, but not so hard as you might think.
Knowledge of human psychology and behavior can yeild all sorts of neat acurate predictions. I recomend reading some Dr.Alfred Adler and Dr. Abraham Maslow for insight.
Again, it comes down to using acurate methods to acheive acurate results.


But then how do emotions and moods factor in to experience? I believe they both greatly effect the end result. But again they don't produce a guaranteed result.
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:34 pm
Chumly,
Quote:

trial and error, without rationality or scientific methodology.

I would say trial and error is both rational and scientific to it's core.
It's a form of testing for truth.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:39 pm
Real Lifer,

Are you trying to argue that since something has happed in your day, and there was no scientific analysis done on it at the time, that that is some sort of fault? If so that is kind'a goofy.

And yes, science can indeed tell at least some of what you did, for example we could pump out your stomach and see what you consumed, we could test the surface of your skin to see what you came into contact with, we could check your finger prints to see where you might have been, the list goes on.

We could tell if you ejaculated into woman's vagina via a DNA test, oh yes Big Brother Science is watching YOU
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:39 pm
hephzibah wrote:
Doktor S wrote:
People are very hard to predict, but not so hard as you might think.
Knowledge of human psychology and behavior can yeild all sorts of neat acurate predictions. I recomend reading some Dr.Alfred Adler and Dr. Abraham Maslow for insight.
Again, it comes down to using acurate methods to acheive acurate results.


But then how do emotions and moods factor in to experience? I believe they both greatly effect the end result. But again they don't produce a guaranteed result.

Again, these kinds of questions can be answered by psychology. Anyway, I'm unsure where you are going with this.
Yes, people are very hard to predict. Yes, our predictions about peoples behaviors will often be wrong. But this is only due to insufficient information to make more acurate predictions, right?
Are you trying to argue for another way to 'know' things or what, and if so, what is it?
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:46 pm
LOL for once dok I have no defined destination at this point. I have no point to prove even. I'm just trying to sort out how with all the factors of being human: having a brain, having emotions, having moods, and so forth we could be put into a formula to predict what we're going to do next. Because if this can be proven it would infact disprove the theory of experience. Ummm I think...
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:46 pm
hephzibah wrote:
He already answered that chumly:

Quote:
No one but I was there to observe them and they won't be repeated.
Does not matter see my reference to DNA etc.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:46 pm
Chumly wrote:
real life wrote:
You can't possibly scientifically prove many of the things I did today.
In what sense could I not scientifically prove many of the things you did today if I was properly prepared in advance? Do you perceive it a fault of science that it must be properly prepared?


DS seems to indicate that the scientific method was his standard for establishing truth ( 'What else have you got?' )

My point is that many of the things we wish to establish are in the past and, having not been anticipated, observers were not in place to record the event.

Our courts deal with such issues on a daily basis and must decide what is reliable and true ( at least beyond a reasonable doubt) without using a scientific method. They use a different method and hence a different standard of proof.

Some issues, such as evolution, that science wishes to address also happened in the past, and having not been anticipated nor observed they therefore fall short of qualifying for a strictly scientific method when trying to determine what is reliable and true.

These events -- the origin of life, the appearance of human life, etc --- were not observed and are not repeatable. Scientists wishing to study these things rely on largely circumstantial evidence, which is far different from direct evidence.

Thus the evidence that is available is open to a variety of interpretations, just as circumstantial evidence in a court of law would be. In fact the historical/legal method is entirely appropriate to be used in studying situations such as this.

In a strict sense, you cannot prove that George Washington existed or that the Roman Empire fell using a scientific method alone. Historical methods are the primary tools used -- sifting through the testimony of witnesses to the events and so forth-- since these historical happenings will not be repeated.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 11:57 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
aktorist Wrote:

Quote:
I am speaking about the world.

FAULTY BELIEFS MAKE A FAULTY WORLD

And of course, your faith is faulty. All faiths are faulty.


And you, of course, can prove this?

Easily. Go into a lab and take a multiple choice test where you have no possible way of finding the correct answer. Use the method of faith. She how accurate it is. I defy you to provide any argument that indicates that faith tends to find true answers as opposed to false answers.
0 Replies
 
 

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