Exactly Why Don't You Believe In the God of the Bible?

Momma Angel wrote:

jpinMilwaukee Wrote:

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What bothers me is the whole "being a christian" thing. I attended many churches of different denominations growing up and the thing they all had in common was this fake, competitive notion of being a good christian. Instead of doing something good to help somebody, they do the act because it is what god would have wanted.

You mean the Saturday night drunks and the Sunday morning Christians? I'm with you there. Unfortunately, it seems the ones that do the things we abhor the most are the ones that are in the public eye, doesn't it?

No, what I mean is that people stop doing things because it is the right thing to do, they do it because it is what god or the church or the members of their congregation want them to do. It stops being about what is the right and good and more about how much credit they get for doing the act.

Momma Angel wrote:

Ok, let's delve into this a bit, ok? You don't think that the WWJD process should be included? Specifically, why? How does it take away their individuality? [/b][/color]

The basis of WWJD is a nice idea. Unfortunately, mostly for the reasons stated above, I think it becomes less about making the right decision and more about what they get out of it. The bible has a rather narrow view of things. This makes those that believe in the religion more likely to act how the religon wants them to act but also excludes those that don't believe from being saved or being included.

Much of my distrust of organized religion comes from my grandmother who is a very devote christian. She volunteers much of her time to the many causes of her church. She always has visiting people who she is sponsoring from other countries staying at her house, or going to nursery homes to help people or homeless shelters or something. Yet, she is one of the most vindictive manipulative people I know. It is always done in the guise of trying to help but the intentions are always to make her a better christian.

She once tried "saving" my sister who was practicing the devilish work of yoga. Her religous views are so narrow that she was ready to damn her own grand daughter to hell because there are portions of yoga that are spiritual. In her mind that was worshiping false idols and a damnable offense. Live like god wants you to or go to hell... that takes away your individuality.

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Brandon9000 Wrote:

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Throughout our ordinary daily lives, we (and that includes you) use evidence incessantly to determine what is likely to be true. This is no different. It is simply stupid to believe a particular theory about the origin and structure of the universe without evidence to suggest it's so, and asking for evidence is eminently reasonable. Your claim that even if you gave us evidence, we wouldn't accept it is a cop-out. The issue never arises, since you haven't given us any evidence. What we might do is irrelevant. It's still unjustied to believe something is true without any reason to suppose it's likely to be true. If the unemployment office asks me for evidence that I've been seeking a job during the past two weeks, and I say, "Even if I gave you evidence, you wouldn't accept it," that is simply an insufficient answer. It's dumb to believe things for which there is no supporting evidence.

BTW, thanks, Setanta.

Ok, you think it is stupid to believe a particular theory about the origin..... without evidence....... So, are you saying it is just stupid to have faith? The issue of evidence of faith has arisen and what has been given was not accepted, and not without just reason, because it is not scientific evidence. That's my point. You require scientific evidence (got it right that time) and I don't. So, does that make you smarter than me? Does that make me dumber than you? I don't think so. I think it just makes us different.

Brandon, has anyone ever asked you to just trust them on something? Even something simple? Maybe the only evidence you had that you could trust them was the way they interacted with you in life previously to that? It's kind of the same way with God for me. His evidence in my life is more than enough for me to accept Him on faith.

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Chumly Wrote:

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OK I'll bite, in order for me to "Believe In the God of the Bible" there would have to be convincing reasons to do so. I am not aware of any convincing reasons to "Believe In the God of the Bible" but I am aware of a number of convincing reasons not to "Believe In the God of the Bible".

Chumly, thank you for posting. What would be a reason for you to consider believing?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Brandon9000 Wrote:

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Throughout our ordinary daily lives, we (and that includes you) use evidence incessantly to determine what is likely to be true. This is no different. It is simply stupid to believe a particular theory about the origin and structure of the universe without evidence to suggest it's so, and asking for evidence is eminently reasonable. Your claim that even if you gave us evidence, we wouldn't accept it is a cop-out. The issue never arises, since you haven't given us any evidence. What we might do is irrelevant. It's still unjustied to believe something is true without any reason to suppose it's likely to be true. If the unemployment office asks me for evidence that I've been seeking a job during the past two weeks, and I say, "Even if I gave you evidence, you wouldn't accept it," that is simply an insufficient answer. It's dumb to believe things for which there is no supporting evidence.

BTW, thanks, Setanta.

Ok, you think it is stupid to believe a particular theory about the origin..... without evidence....... So, are you saying it is just stupid to have faith? The issue of evidence of faith has arisen and what has been given was not accepted, and not without just reason, because it is not scientific evidence. That's my point. You require scientific evidence (got it right that time) and I don't. So, does that make you smarter than me? Does that make me dumber than you? I don't think so. I think it just makes us different.

Brandon, has anyone ever asked you to just trust them on something? Even something simple? Maybe the only evidence you had that you could trust them was the way they interacted with you in life previously to that? It's kind of the same way with God for me. His evidence in my life is more than enough for me to accept Him on faith.

I have a question for you. Why don't you believe that we were put here by aliens who are breeding us to someday be good servants. Why don't you believe that your husband, or son, etc. is keeping a terrible secret from you? Why don't you believe any number of specific things that you don't believe? Because there is no sign that they are true. It isn't "scientific evidence." It simply makes no sense to believe anything if there is no evidence that it's true, and in the rest of your life, I'm sure that you don't. When you say that you believe without evidence because you have faith, you are merely definining yourself to be true.

If someone I know well asks me to trust him about something important, I might do it if his past behavior suggests that he is trustworthy, but that is deciding by evidence, not faith. If someone I don't know asks me to trust him on something important, e.g. lend him a thousand dollars, I would, indeed, not do it, because I have no evidence about his character. If, as you say, you believe in God because there has been evidence in your own life that he exists, then share some of this evidence with us.

You are willfully misunderstanding something really trivially simple that has been stated to you over and over for about a year now - it is irrational to believe something without anything to suggest it's true. It is just that simple. You believe in God because you want him to exist, but people who make decisions that way will end up believing a lot of things that aren't true.

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jpinMilwaukee Wrote:

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No, what I mean is that people stop doing things because it is the right thing to do, they do it because it is what god or the church or the members of their congregation want them to do. It stops being about what is the right and good and more about how much credit they get for doing the act.

And I agree. It has to be the right thing to God. And, there should never be an argument over this. If it is truly of God, then no one would argue about it.

Quote:

The basis of WWJD is a nice idea. Unfortunately, mostly for the reasons stated above, I think it becomes less about making the right decision and more about what they get out of it. The bible has a rather narrow view of things. This makes those that believe in the religion more likely to act how the religon wants them to act but also excludes those that don't believe from being saved or being included.

Much of my distrust of organized religion comes from my grandmother who is a very devote christian. She volunteers much of her time to the many causes of her church. She always has visiting people who she is sponsoring from other countries staying at her house, or going to nursery homes to help people or homeless shelters or something. Yet, she is one of the most vindictive manipulative people I know. It is always done in the guise of trying to help but the intentions are always to make her a better christian.

She once tried "saving" my sister who was practicing the devilish work of yoga. Her religous views are so narrow that she was ready to damn her own grand daughter to hell because there are portions of yoga that are spiritual. In her mind that was worshiping false idols and a damnable offense. Live like god wants you to or go to hell... that takes away your individuality.

And this is the part of Christianity I so wish would change. Jesus did not condemn. Just because someone sinned He did not condemn them. He came to save us. Every single person in this world has sin in their lives. Not a one of us is any better than another in God's eyes. Who are we to judge someone because we think they are doing something wrong?

I realize we all do it in one way or another. But, I really do get sick to my stomach at the ones that will either try to scare someone into heaven or force them into hell. I think it's perfectly okay to believe differently. If someone believes in water baptism and I don't (I do but just an example) how ignorant it would be of me to condemn them! Now, that's just a small thing I realize. There are things I don't agree with in this world. But, I do my best to not treat people differently because they are different. We are all different in so many ways.

I am sorry you went through that. I think if more people in this world could sit down and start discussing these things like we are and try to understand each other, then and maybe then, we can start walking the walk and not just talking the talk.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Chumly, thank you for posting. What would be a reason for you to consider believing?

Damn . . . you couldn't make this sh!t up . . . and comic relief at this price--free--is actually priceless . . .

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Brandon9000 Wrote:

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I have a question for you. Why don't you believe that we were put here by aliens who are breeding us to someday be good servants. Why don't you believe that your husband, or son, etc. is keeping a terrible secret from you? Why don't you believe any number of specific things that you don't believe? Because there is no sign that they are true. It isn't "scientific evidence." It simply makes no sense to believe anything if there is no evidence that it's true, and in the rest of your life, I'm sure that you don't. When you say that you believe without evidence because you have faith, you are merely definining yourself to be true.

If someone I know well asks me to trust him about something important, I might do it if his past behavior suggests that he is trustworthy, but that is deciding by evidence, not faith. If someone I don't know asks me to trust him on something important, e.g. lend him a thousand dollars, I would, indeed, not do it, because I have no evidence about his character. If, as you say, you believe in God because there has been evidence in your own life that he exists, then share some of this evidence with us.

You are willfully misunderstanding something really trivially simple that has been stated to you over and over for about a year now - it is irrational to believe something without anything to suggest it's true. It is just that simple. You believe in God because you want him to exist, but people who make decisions that way will end up believing a lot of things that aren't true.

Ok, before you and I go any further, please understand something. I am not willfully misunderstanding anything. If I misunderstand something then I just misunderstand it. I have no problem with you pointing out that I am misunderstanding. Brandon, TO YOU it is irrational. TO ME it is not irrational. Like I said, it just makes us different.

I do not believe in God because I want Him to exist. I believe that He does exist. In my heart, I know that He exists. Again, just makes us different, Brandon. Doesn't make me stupid and it doesn't make you anything either.

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Momma Angel wrote:

And I agree. It has to be the right thing to God. And, there should never be an argument over this. If it is truly of God, then no one would argue about it.

I don't think you are understanding my point.

Doing something good should have nothing to do with god. Doing something good should be done because it is the right thing to do... not because god wants you to do it.

I think people end up doing good things to gain favor in gods eyes, not because it is a good thing to do.

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Momma wrote:

Ok, you don't believe the Bible is God-inspired. Is there a reason that you believe it was written by the people of their time.....etc.? Do you think maybe it was like a book of fiction someone wrote?

No, I don't think it was meant to be a book of fiction. I think that the people of the times attempted to portray the world as they understood it then. It was a book of myths that had formerly been handed down orally for generations, history, a philosophy, and a compilation of laws. Now, like all good politicians from time immemorial, I would suppose that the powers-that-be of that era inserted material that enhanced their own power and influence over the people.

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jpinMilwaukee wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
And I agree. It has to be the right thing to God. And, there should never be an argument over this. If it is truly of God, then no one would argue about it.

I don't think you are understanding my point.

Doing something good should have nothing to do with god. Doing something good should be done because it is the right thing to do... not because god wants you to do it.

I think people end up doing good things to gain favor in gods eyes, not because it is a good thing to do.

But what if doing it for God is the right thing to do? I am sure there are some that do things to gain favor in God's eyes. There are many that believe that works and not faith is what saves us.

But, if one were to change because of God's influence in their life and caused them to be a better person because it is the ultimate right thing to do, isn't that ok? Would you still consider doing it as a way to gain favor?

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Phoenix Wrote:

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No, I don't think it was meant to be a book of fiction. I think that the people of the times attempted to portray the world as they understood it then. It was a book of myths that had formerly been handed down orally for generations, history, a philosophy, and a compilation of laws. Now, like all good politicians from time immemorial, I would suppose that the powers-that-be of that era inserted material that enhanced their own power and influence over the people.

Ok, I don't know exactly how long it was from Adam to say Noah but why do you feel these primitive people would have felt a need for myths, etc? Do you think they thought much about far into the future or how people might progress? I have heard many say they thought religion was made up to keep man in line (something like that). Is this kind of what you are thinking?

If so, who would start this? I believe there are reasons for just about everything so please bear with me on my questions.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Brandon9000 Wrote:

Quote:
I have a question for you. Why don't you believe that we were put here by aliens who are breeding us to someday be good servants. Why don't you believe that your husband, or son, etc. is keeping a terrible secret from you? Why don't you believe any number of specific things that you don't believe? Because there is no sign that they are true. It isn't "scientific evidence." It simply makes no sense to believe anything if there is no evidence that it's true, and in the rest of your life, I'm sure that you don't. When you say that you believe without evidence because you have faith, you are merely definining yourself to be true.

If someone I know well asks me to trust him about something important, I might do it if his past behavior suggests that he is trustworthy, but that is deciding by evidence, not faith. If someone I don't know asks me to trust him on something important, e.g. lend him a thousand dollars, I would, indeed, not do it, because I have no evidence about his character. If, as you say, you believe in God because there has been evidence in your own life that he exists, then share some of this evidence with us.

You are willfully misunderstanding something really trivially simple that has been stated to you over and over for about a year now - it is irrational to believe something without anything to suggest it's true. It is just that simple. You believe in God because you want him to exist, but people who make decisions that way will end up believing a lot of things that aren't true.

Ok, before you and I go any further, please understand something. I am not willfully misunderstanding anything. If I misunderstand something then I just misunderstand it. I have no problem with you pointing out that I am misunderstanding. Brandon, TO YOU it is irrational. TO ME it is not irrational. Like I said, it just makes us different.

I do not believe in God because I want Him to exist. I believe that He does exist. In my heart, I know that He exists. Again, just makes us different, Brandon. Doesn't make me stupid and it doesn't make you anything either.

Indeed, believing that what you want to be true is true, without a shred of evidence of its truth, is.....well, I don't have to say it. An intelligent adult determines what is true by observation and reason, and does not allow his judegement to be tainted by his wishes or his fears. Things in this universe are not true just because you want them to be, or false because you want them to be false. Your way of determining truth is certainly inferior to mine, because any laboratory test will instantly show that it leads to false conclusions.

You said a post or two ago that you believe in him now because of past evidence. Yet other times, you said that you believe without evidence. I would like to know which of your contradictory statements is the true one. If you do have evidence in your own life that a Supreme Being exists, perhaps you would share it.

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Momma Angel wrote:

But what if doing it for God is the right thing to do?

It's not. Doing something good for a person is done for the person benefiting from the help. It has nothing to do with god.

Momma Angel wrote:

But, if one were to change because of God's influence in their life and caused them to be a better person because it is the ultimate right thing to do, isn't that ok?

Why do you have to attribute the change to god? Why can't a person change for the better just because?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Brandon9000 Wrote:

Quote:
I have a question for you. Why don't you believe that we were put here by aliens who are breeding us to someday be good servants. Why don't you believe that your husband, or son, etc. is keeping a terrible secret from you? Why don't you believe any number of specific things that you don't believe? Because there is no sign that they are true. It isn't "scientific evidence." It simply makes no sense to believe anything if there is no evidence that it's true, and in the rest of your life, I'm sure that you don't. When you say that you believe without evidence because you have faith, you are merely definining yourself to be true.

If someone I know well asks me to trust him about something important, I might do it if his past behavior suggests that he is trustworthy, but that is deciding by evidence, not faith. If someone I don't know asks me to trust him on something important, e.g. lend him a thousand dollars, I would, indeed, not do it, because I have no evidence about his character. If, as you say, you believe in God because there has been evidence in your own life that he exists, then share some of this evidence with us.

You are willfully misunderstanding something really trivially simple that has been stated to you over and over for about a year now - it is irrational to believe something without anything to suggest it's true. It is just that simple. You believe in God because you want him to exist, but people who make decisions that way will end up believing a lot of things that aren't true.

Brandon, TO YOU it is irrational. TO ME it is not irrational.

Actually, according to the dictionary definition of the word, it is irrational. This is one reason people lose patience when talking about this stuff with you, just so you know. You can't make up definitions of words and expect people to take you seriously.

Adj. 1. irrational - not consistent with or using reason; "irrational fears"; "irrational animals"

You believe in god. Fine, but just don't tell us it's rational when it is definitely NOT. Why won't you accept the fact that it is an irrational belief? If you did, you'd earn at least a little bit more respect for being intellectually honest about your ideas, I think.

Or, at the very least, if you still believe your faith is rational, then provide some specific reasons why you have come to the conclusion that god exists.

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Momma- All cultures, whether primitive or sophisticated, have a repetoire of myths that are handed down from generation to generation.

You might want to read Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth". There is also a DVD of the mini-series that appeared on PBS some years ago. I think that you willl find it eye opening, as well as fascinating.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0296362/

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385418868/102-8967768-1568110?v=glance&n=283155

It would be a reasonable assumption as humanity became more civilized, and began to live in larger groupings, that laws needed to be promulgated so as to maintain order. In earlier times, people believed in many gods. By codifying the laws so that only one God was involved, it enabled the leaders to exert tighter control over the populace, through fear of the God's retribution.

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Brandon9000 Wrote:

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Indeed, believing that what you want to be true is true, without a shred of evidence of its truth, is.....well, I don't have to say it. An intelligent adult determines what is true by observation and reason, and does not allow his judegement to be tainted by his wishes or his fears. Things in this universe are not true just because you want them to be, or false because you want them to be false. Your way of determining truth is certainly inferior to mine, because any laboratory test will instantly show that it leads to false conclusions.

So if one determines what is true in this case differently than you, this would make one less intelligent (irrational, any word you want here) than you? What if on every other thing in life there was complete agreement with you? Would one still be less intelligent than you?

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You said a post or two ago that you believe in him now because of past evidence. Yet other times, you said that you believe without evidence. I would like to know which of your contradictory statements is the true one. If you do have evidence in your own life that a Supreme Being exists, perhaps you would share it.

Actually, I first believed on faith alone. Over the years that faith has been reinforced by evidence of God in my life. I would be more than happy to share it but I think we need to come to an understanding on this other issue first.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Chumly Wrote:

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OK I'll bite, in order for me to "Believe In the God of the Bible" there would have to be convincing reasons to do so. I am not aware of any convincing reasons to "Believe In the God of the Bible" but I am aware of a number of convincing reasons not to "Believe In the God of the Bible".

Chumly, thank you for posting. What would be a reason for you to consider believing?

I would need some way to know with reasonable certainty that this god was the correct one, and hence the 100's of thousands of other gods throughout man's existence were not the correct ones.

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jpinMilwaukee Wrote:

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It's not. Doing something good for a person is done for the person benefiting from the help. It has nothing to do with god.

Yes, it is done for the benefit of the person receiving the help. But, if the principle behind it is it is something you believe God wants you to do is there anything wrong with it? Isn't the important thing that you have made the change in your life and you are now doing the "right" things?

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Why do you have to attribute the change to god? Why can't a person change for the better just because?

I didn't say anyone can't change for the better just because. We are just talking about God specifically right now. I think there are lots of reasons that people make changes in their lives, whether for the better or worse.

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kickycan,

Hey big guy! I will be back in a bit to answer your post :wink: .

Chumly, will get back to you soon too!