Exactly Why Don't You Believe In the God of the Bible?

Momma Angel wrote:

I think most might think I don't like Setanta. Actually, that is not true. I don't like the things he says about God or believing in God in general. I understand he has a reason for saying them, but I don't like that he says them. So, if I can understand his reasons for doing it, if I can look past those things and still care about him as a person (I know, it's just cyberspace, but Setanta is a real person with feelings just like everyone else) and God is so much greater than I am, can't He see into Setanta's heart and see that he has those feelings also? I think He can and does. But, I do believe there is a point that God draws the line with all of us and then says, "Ok, you go your way and I'll go mine."

No, that vicious joker says: "You go my way, or you're goin' straight to Hell to suffer for eternity." What a nasty, egocentric old bastard.

Of course, standing next to the throne of god for eternity singing his praises (what a conceited jerk!) puts you next to a light "as the light of ten thousand suns." Hell is merely a lake of molten brimstone. It's gonna be a Helluva lot hotter where you're goin' than it will be for me. Additionally, there'll be more of us, so the hours will be shorter. (All puns intended)

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Momma Angel wrote:

FreeDuck Wrote:

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Ok, here goes. The idea that one's whole life's judgment comes down to whether they check yes or no in the Jesus box just comes across as ludicrous to me. I have a lot of respect for Jesus and his words and don't accept that none of that is as important as his blood washing away our sins.

I am not sure what you mean exactly, FreeDuck. I am probably just not reading it correctly. Do you think His words were more important than the shedding of His blood or vice versa or do they have the same meaning to you?

Yes, I think his words were more important and the idea of a human sacrifice for all of humankind is, well, hard to believe and so Old Testament.

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All this concentration on believing the right thing in order to go to heaven appears to distract from the purpose of knowing God. Jesus talked about seeking the kingdom of God in terms of this world, not the next.

You think He was talking only of this world? Do you think maybe He might have been speaking of both in a sense? He said that we are not to be of this world. I take that to mean that we should be in His world even though we are on this earth. Very curious as to your thoughts.

That's not inconsistent with what I'm saying. If we seek the kingdom of God in this world then we are essentially in this world but not of it. Especially if the kingdom of God is within us.

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I am very intrigued by if there is an afterlife there must be a beforelife? Hmmm. Do you think God might have done all this before? Do you think maybe He starts over and over with mankind?

That's exactly what I think (for now, I'm constantly reassessing). I think it has been done on this earth before and probably other planets in other solar systems. We come, evolve until the earth can no longer sustain us, wipe ourselves out, and then whatever starts the process does it again once the conditions are right. This, of course, is just an idle thought based on almost nothing.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Brandon9000,

What would you consider to be evidence of God?

What does anyone consider to be evidence of anything in life? Something that suggests that it might be true. An absence of illnesses in the Popes. Someone worthy about to die who is saved in a way that looks like intervention. 25 people who all see precisely the same divine visitation. In short, anything at all that suggests that there is a God. You bring me anything at all that is hard to explain any way except for the existence of God, and I will take it as evidence.

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sozobe wrote:

I've tried to make Phoenix's "religiocentric" point a few times -- I think it is a good one.

And I don't disagree with you, sozobe. Like I said I started this particular thread because it is a question I wanted to know the answer to so I could understand others better.

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Just because religion is so central to your existence does not mean that other people have a similar need.

And I completely understand this. I do not expect anyone to post anything in this thread nor in the others. If some do, great. If they don't, great too. I am just glad they are in this one, as it is really giving me a much better understanding.

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I'm going to assume you are not a football fan -- if you are, I'll pick another metaphor.

Imagine that I am an ardent Green Bay Packers fan. (Doesn't take much imagination, since I am. :-D) But further imagine that I am extremely vociferous about my fandom (shh, Gus), and I go around everywhere talking about it. I start a bunch of threads about how wonderful the Packers are. I pounce on anyone who disses them slightly with more about their wonderfulness. I am all Packers, all the time.

Then I ask you, why aren't you a Green Bay Packers fan?

What?! Who is not a Green Bay Packers fan!? Where?! Let me at 'em! Are you kidding me?! Girl, my family lives in Wisconsin and I doubt you'd find a more ardent Packer fan than my mother! So, I am definitely guilty by association on this one!

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I think it is likely that your reaction to that would be similar to my reaction to your question here. It might include:

1.) Uh, I don't like football.
2.) I just don't care.
3.) I have better things to do with my life than waste a few hours on a Sunday. ;-)

The point is, you don't spend a lot of time or thought on the fact that you are not a Green Bay Packers fan. It's just not something that holds an important place in your life. There are other things that are far more important.

Right?

Completely agree with you here. It is important to some and not to others.

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I have no particular need for religion. I like stories, of many kinds -- there are some good ones in the bible. I also like the Ramayana, and parts of the Koran are beautiful. I take bits and pieces from all over the place, and weave a pretty contented life out of them.

Ok, is there a specific reason you have no need for religion? Do you feel it is a crutch? Do you feel it is a detriment?

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I'd only take issue with that to point out that 25 people saying they saw the same thing wouldn't signify. The contention about "Our Lady of Fatima" is that 70,000 people saw a visitation of the "holy virgin" in Portugal, at Fatima, in 1917. It is doubtful that anyone can prove that 70,000 people saw anything at all--but even were that the case, one cannot rule out mass delusion.

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As a great sign of the whole message truly coming from God, a marvelous miracle was worked in the sky above Fatima before 70,000 witnesses on October 13, 1917 at the time, date and place that Lucy and the other two children had prophesised in the name of Our Lady of Fatima. The children were told by Our Lady that God would perform a miracle so that people would believe in the apparitions. The date the children was October 13, 1917, in Fatima. On that date, 70,000 people came to see the phenomenon. The miracle occured with the sun. All could stare perfectly at the sun without blinking, or even hurting heir eyes. While all were watching the sun, it rotated, got large and small, got close to the people, and got far away from them. The sun " danced ". Every single person who was there testified to seeing the sun dance, even non- believers who immediately dropped onto their knees and begged for forgiveness.

I think it would be better to stipulate a demonstration of a clear violation of the known laws of physics--a topic upon which Brandon is far better qualified to comment than i.

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Just no particular need.

I was raised agnostic. I went through a very trying time as an adolescent (my parents divorced, and I began to go deaf [took five years of fluctuations, age 13 through 18), and I got myself through it. I found reserves of strength that I was very happy to have, and knowing they are there keep me pretty happy.

People of every religion you can imagine have suggested that the strength came from their god or goddesses or one or a few from their pantheon of gods and goddesses; the suggestion doesn't make me angry, per se (I was not amused at the woman who said that if I accepted Jesus as my savior my hearing would miraculously return), it's just kind of, whatever. I read about all of it with interest, and have some sort of sense of a universe that is balanced -- Buddhism comes closest to what I believe. It has nothing, however, to do with any specific deistic religion. I am not contemptuous of people who are religious, especially if they are private/ do not attempt to impose their religion on anyone else in any way. It just isn't for me. Superfluous.

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FreeDuck Wrote:

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Yes, I think his words were more important and the idea of a human sacrifice for all of humankind is, well, hard to believe and so Old Testament.

Is it possible in your mind that this might just be symbolic instead of literal? Can you see His crucificixion in that way perhaps?

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That's not inconsistent with what I'm saying. If we seek the kingdom of God in this world then we are essentially in this world but not of it. Especially if the kingdom of God is within us.

FreeDuck, I think you got it. I think this is exactly what it is supposed to mean.

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That's exactly what I think (for now, I'm constantly reassessing). I think it has been done on this earth before and probably other planets in other solar systems. We come, evolve until the earth can no longer sustain us, wipe ourselves out, and then whatever starts the process does it again once the conditions are right. This, of course, is just an idle thought based on almost nothing.

This is something I think many people wonder. I know I have. And no, nothing to point me to that, just a thought I've had.

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Brandon9000 Wrote:

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What does anyone consider to be evidence of anything in life? Something that suggests that it might be true. An absence of illnesses in the Popes. Someone worthy about to die who is saved in a way that looks like intervention. 25 people who all see precisely the same divine visitation. In short, anything at all that suggests that there is a God. You bring me anything at all that is hard to explain any way except for the existence of God, and I will take it as evidence.

Let me ask you this, Brandon, do you really think that if this happened, that someone somewhere would not come up with a perfectly logical explanation for it?

Wouldn't this miracle have to be something that would specifically have meaning to you and you only? Wouldn't it have to be something that you and you alone actually KNEW was from God?

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Setanta,

I did not want you to think that I was ignoring you. I know you have a lot of knowledge concerning Christianity, religion in general, history, etc. I feel you could be so helpful in this thread. You have posted many things about the history of Christianity I had no idea about.

So, if you would, can you tell me why you, personally, don't believe (accept, whatever the right word is here) the God of the Bible? I may have some general feeling about it from your posts but I think there is probably a lot more to it.

I would greatly appreciate your input on this.

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sozobe Wrote:

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Just no particular need.

I was raised agnostic. I went through a very trying time as an adolescent (my parents divorced, and I began to go deaf [took five years of fluctuations, age 13 through 18), and I got myself through it. I found reserves of strength that I was very happy to have, and knowing they are there keep me pretty happy.

People of every religion you can imagine have suggested that the strength came from their god or goddesses or one or a few from their pantheon of gods and goddesses; the suggestion doesn't make me angry, per se (I was not amused at the woman who said that if I accepted Jesus as my savior my hearing would miraculously return), it's just kind of, whatever. I read about all of it with interest, and have some sort of sense of a universe that is balanced -- Buddhism comes closest to what I believe. It has nothing, however, to do with any specific deistic religion. I am not contemptuous of people who are religious, especially if they are private/ do not attempt to impose their religion on anyone else in any way. It just isn't for me. Superfluous.

You really fascinate me, sozobe. You seem so content (?), secure (?) in what you believe. I am trying to figure out how to pose this question. I know that what one is raised as is what one tends to become (religionwise). Do you feel this is true in your case? Did you have exposure to others' beliefs enough to have an impact on what you believe? If you were and didn't feel an impact, is there a reason for that, do you think?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Setanta,

I did not want you to think that I was ignoring you. I know you have a lot of knowledge concerning Christianity, religion in general, history, etc. I feel you could be so helpful in this thread. You have posted many things about the history of Christianity I had no idea about.

So, if you would, can you tell me why you, personally, don't believe (accept, whatever the right word is here) the God of the Bible? I may have some general feeling about it from your posts but I think there is probably a lot more to it.

I would greatly appreciate your input on this.

It would be, of course, a matter of indifference to me if you were ignoring me.

Entia non sunt multiplicanda

Setanta wrote:

There is no logical reason for a deity. That being said, in particular, the god of the bobble is puerile, vengeful, murderously violent, racist and sexist. A more despicable character would be hard to imagine.

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nature=what is-is=physical reality=rational=physics

unnatural=what isn't-is==irrational=meta-physical=religion.

Aint no way around this mother no matter how sincere you are or aren't. I suspect you're only giving yourself and others a headache that will come to naught. I also suspect you will not cease and desist so the least I can do is to find you amusing.

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Tons of exposure. Maternal grandparents were Methodist, paternal were Jewish. Both tried to bring me into the light. ;-) I also went through a period of purposeful researching, from probably middle school through early college -- I've been to religious services for pretty much every religion you can imagine. It wasn't out of any particular need, but I felt like I wanted to make an informed decision.

That's when I identified Buddhism as the religion I had the most affinity for, though there is much about Judaism and its culture and traditions that I like a lot.

I'm very interested in mythology and folklore, Joseph Cambell, the universal myths. One thing that has always struck me is how similar the core principles of all religions are -- I much prefer to respect these core principles (mostly about how to be a good person and live a good life) without choosing one of the religions that espouse it to the exclusion of others.

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Momma Angel:

The following is by Penn Jillette for a NPR Series called This I Believe
I think you would like the series. This one by Jillette is as close to a statement of my present thinking as I will ever come.
You can treat his words as mine. Enjoy. JN

I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy -- you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word "elephant" includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?

So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy.

But, this "This I Believe" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "This I believe: I believe there is no God."

Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it's everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day.

Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.

Joe(no skyhooks needed)Nation

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Momma Angel wrote:

FreeDuck Wrote:

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Yes, I think his words were more important and the idea of a human sacrifice for all of humankind is, well, hard to believe and so Old Testament.

Is it possible in your mind that this might just be symbolic instead of literal? Can you see His crucificixion in that way perhaps?

No, just irrelevant. If you need to believe that he was God then it is important. To me, it doesn't matter if he was or wasn't, so the emphasis on his death and our sins is misplaced and distracts from actually finding God.

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Joe, I love that series and I heard that very piece on my way home from work a while ago. Nice.

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dyslexia Wrote:

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nature=what is-is=physical reality=rational=physics

unnatural=what isn't-is==irrational=meta-physical=religion.

Aint no way around this mother no matter how sincere you are or aren't. I suspect you're only giving yourself and others a headache that will come to naught. I also suspect you will not cease and desist so the least I can do is to find you amusing.

I understand what you are saying about the proof and such. But, what I guess I don't understand is what is the underlying reason for wanting the proof? There are obviously those that have the need for proof and those that don't. What is it in you that makes you want the proof? I can only ask this question because since I don't require the proof I don't know what it feels like to require it. The only way I can get this answer is to ask those that need the proof. I want to understand this.

And I guess I won't quit until I get an answer! So, hopefully, you will be amused along the way. :wink:

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For me it is more of a matter of not believing in organized religion. I think there are some very good moral lessons to be leared from christianity that are worth teaching.

What bothers me is the whole "being a christian" thing. I attended many churches of different denominations growing up and the thing they all had in common was this fake, competitive notion of being a good christian. Instead of doing something good to help somebody, they do the act because it is what god would have wanted.

Beyond that, I feel that instead of people learning the lessons of the bible and filtering them through their decision making process and applying them to their life and everyday decisions, they make them their life. It is the whole WWJD mantra that takes away peoples individuality and causes the intolerance often seen in christians towards those with other beliefs.

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This thread irritates me, I must admit. Isn't the issue all about belief? Either one believes or one does not.

There's no list of things that have to happen to make a person believe. It's like love: I know she doesn't love me, but if I change my hairdo or my clothes, maybe she will.

It doesn't work that way. Why not leave it at that?

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sozobe Wrote:

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Tons of exposure. Maternal grandparents were Methodist, paternal were Jewish. Both tried to bring me into the light. I also went through a period of purposeful researching, from probably middle school through early college -- I've been to religious services for pretty much every religion you can imagine. It wasn't out of any particular need, but I felt like I wanted to make an informed decision.

Cool! Now, we are getting somewhere. Ok, you wanted to make an informed decision. This is like the question I asked dys. Why did you feel it had to be an informed decision and not a matter of faith? What causes you to make that distinction within yourself that it has to be informed and not faith? (Hope I stated that right.)

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That's when I identified Buddhism as the religion I had the most affinity for, though there is much about Judaism and its culture and traditions that I like a lot.

Ok, is that because the traditions were already somewhat aligned to what you believed or felt? Was it because it offered something different you found attractive?

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I'm very interested in mythology and folklore, Joseph Cambell, the universal myths. One thing that has always struck me is how similar the core principles of all religions are -- I much prefer to respect these core principles (mostly about how to be a good person and live a good life) without choosing one of the religions that espouse it to the exclusion of others.

Great. This is great! Yes, the core message. That is the important thing. Again, isn't this more a matter of mankind shaping religion into what they want it to be?

It means so much to me that you and everyone are answering these questions. I thank you all so much.

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Exactly Why Don't You Believe In the God of the Bible?

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