Hundreds killed in Hajj stampede

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Well as I said I think militant Islam has been elevated in status to that of the World Wide Evil Enemy - who good people (thats us) must fight because we are good - to stop them doing bad because they are evil. We used to focus on communism until it inconveniently collapsed. Having a clearly defined enemy without makes the process of government at home much easier. The neocons came to realise they needed al Qaida as much as militant Islam needed The Great Satan to fight against.

But just because both parties know there is an element of game playing going on, it doesnt mean that there aren't some very dangerous people around. People with crazy ideas in their heads about a global caliphate about jihad, martrydom and paradise. However it came about, (and some will say it is entirely our own fault) the fact is these Islamists are making war on us. I think one of the most powerful weapons we can deploy against the fanatics is exposure of their religious and philosophical ideas to critical scrutiny. And if that shows Islam to be repressive, backwards looking and in some instances just plain wrong, then so be it.

I hav eno problem with that.

I DO have a problem with singling out Islam for problems associated with other religions, too...and for things which are simply human.

But my point was partly yours...that demonizing a group works well in making us accept all kinds of things we would otherwise reject....just as the Islamic fanatics use the same tactics to "justify" their actions.


I just do not think going along with this demonizing is a helpful thing to do.

dlowan, you make too much sense for this planet.

Thanks for the various links and descriptions of the Hajj Deb. Surely the rich don't go through all that rigmarole, they pay someone to do it for them no?

I think that is very not true!

You have no say in what I say.

When you read all they have to do and go through to become Hajji, I dont know whether to be impressed by their piety or confirmed in my prejudices...actually no contest. Why not go to Africa and spend 10 days digging an irrigation canal instead?

As I said in one of my first posts on this thread, if you accept a deity with expressed wishes, you do what they say, i guess.

Islam was founded six hundred years after christianity. Six hundred years ago, people went on pilgrimage to San Juan Compost-ella (ok, ok, i couldn't resist) and faced innumerable dangers of travel in primitive Europe, and if they survived, faced equal dangers from cutpurses and murderers once they got there. Can't say if they were subject to stampedes once they got there, as i don't recall from having read about that particular form of lunancy more than thirty yeas ago. Not quite six hundred years ago, the powers that were suckered Jan Hus into coming to see them at the Council of Constance, where they promptly convicted him of heresy and burned him at the stake, starting a period of mild religious bloodshed which was the opening act to a much grander and broader bloody slaughter on confessional lines. Six hundred years ago, most of the population of Europe lived in poverty, filth and ignorance.

One might allege that Muslims have a long way to go. We (as in christians) have been at it considerably longer, but christians still slaughter other christians (Croatia, Slovenia, Rwanda, Liberia) as well as slaughtering the members of other confessions. Expecting a more sophisticated response from populations among which many if not most of the members live in poverty, filth and ignorance is not just unrealistic, it is blind arrogance.

Where is the baggage handling office? I seem to have lost my luggage....

I've been to Santiago de Compostella. Did the pilgrim route across northern spain...on a motorcycle. You can fly Air Berlin direct now from Stansted...just so you know.

I ain't interested . . . i dislike crowds, and stampedes just kill me . . .

dl - Thanks for all the info and the links. A lot of reading there, but interesting to read about all the rituals. I wonder why stitching isn't allowed in men's clothes.

Here's another interesting part of the pilmigrage:

One Million Animals Sacrificed Over Three Days

<I have to admit...I read this and wondered if they have a version of PETA in that part of the world>

They sacrifice animals?


It's soooo weird, isn't it?


We happily eat the poor smeggers, killed in abbatoirs and such (well, I don't, as it happens...I eat free range, killed in humane...so they tell me...conditions, but still) in terror and awfulness, but have a visceral response to ritual killing.

Oh well, we aren't human because we make sense.

Well, they can choose to participate directly or indirectly, by purchasing "tickets". Also, the meat is donated to charity, or cooked for the pilgrims.

There's also a first-hand account of the last day of one individual's experience that is well-written and very interesting:

Day Five

oh you miss out all the fun. Kissing bits of stone and gawping at silver caskets containing the PUTATIVE (now where did I get that word?) St James, brother of Christ.

Also been up Croah Patrick in Ireland (twice in fact) but not on a motorcycle, and not in bare feet either...are they mad? Talk about saving soles...

I think I have a Jerusalem and maybe a Walsingham to do then I qualify as bone fide Left-footer (now where did that expression come from?)