Hundreds killed in Hajj stampede

Yes, huge, fervent, crowds are hard to control.

And the Saudis seem to be having lots of trouble controlling them.

This is not the first time it has happened, and won't be the last.

............and all for what?

Well, if you adopt the religious mindset re Mecca (or Makka, as I observe seems to be the preferred spelling?) it makes perfect sense.

If not, it doesn't.


Kinda like the road toll, or allowing mass gun ownership, in their own ways....

dlowan wrote:
"Yes, huge, fervent, crowds are hard to control. "

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Are the crowds at the Vatican during pilgrimmages or important church occasions anyless fervent?

(they may be larger, but when was the last time someone one crushed to death?).

Is there a qualitative distinction here?

You may wish to state whatever you believe, rather than hint around it?

Personally, what I believe is summed up as follows:

"There is nothing more terrible than ignorance in action"

- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

***

But I'm less interested in what I believe than in seeing what others make of the events involved - and, more importantly, the implications of this - while trying, of course, to observe the general guidlines concerning good sense in the discussion of religious matters.

However, if one retreats to a general deferrence to religion - or specifically to this religion - then nothing really meaingful can be said about the event, except commonplace pronouncements about large crowds and improved safety.

If Mecca was in Britain, they'd have formed an orderly queue, talked about the weather whilst waiting and took a flask of tea with them.

You appear to have two names, Harris Explorator.

Can you explain more fully in what way lemming-like religious fanaticism is

"Kinda like the road toll, or allowing mass gun ownership" ?

Feel free to express yourself within the bounds of common sense and good taste. You need not feel constrained to rehearse bland bromides.

In re: Usernames -

Yes Media_Explorator is a general professional name.

Harris Zellig is a personal name.

(I use the former for media organizations, and had just come back from a BBC News thread). Sorry if it caused any confusion.

Did you have anything to say about the substantive issues involved in this post, dlowan?

What substantive issue would one find in your screed? You have yet to fully reveal your contempt for Islam, so we don't have much to work with.

Lord Ellpus seems to have a bit of insight into at least some of the cultural distinctions here.

I have heard it said that one informal definition of irrationality is repeating the same harmful behavior over and over again, but expecting different results each time. This seems relevant to the recurring
episodes of Hajji stoning, trampling, and other advanced forms of spiritual expression.

Well, Zelplorator, having decided you are likely a multiple personalitied fanatic yourself, here to pursue a personal agendum, I feel little constrained to respond to you at all.

You really shot yourself in the foot there, didn't you?


However, since you seem to need help to unravel a pretty simple analogy, here it is.



Presumably Muslims get a lot out of the pilgrimage to Mecca, and proceed with it even though there is danger. I do not understand any form of religious fanaticism, Muslim, christian, Hindu or whatever, but there it is.

Thing is, we human beings do all kinds of dumb things because they mean a lot to us, and stick to and promote them despite their being dangerous.


Guns for instance. Americans, eg, kill each other at a stunning rate every year with guns.

A rational respons would be to do what most western countries do and limit gun ownership....but, a highly organised group of gun fanatics ensure that this does not happen, hence ensuring many deaths.


Ditto with cars, I have no idwea how many people are maimed and injured in cars every year...and we know how bad they are for the environment, yet we all cling to our cars, despite the danger and damage.


Actually, BTW, my response was to Lord Ellpus's

"This is not the first time it has happened, and won't be the last.

............and all for what?"

comment, not one of yours, and I was simply pointing out that we all do dangerous things because they mean something to us.



As for your position, which I assume to be something like:

"Muslims are fanatical, dangerous, subhuman things who can't be trusted to gather in crowds unlike the nice, decent, civilised christians"

I consider it to be a fanatical one in its own right.



I suspect there may be conditions which make the Mecca thing more dangerous, including that the crowds are moving, and they are in an excited state.


I assume you would hold similar prejudices against those groups of humans who crush each other to death in football stadium stampedes etc?

The stoning the devil thing is a recipe for disaster, as far as I can see (having seen a documentary on it) since it encourages people to become deeply involved in intense rage in a crowd situation.



I assume its not being banned is part of the irrationality of religious thought, or perhaps, they view it as we view cars.....highly dangerous and likely to result in the death of a percentage of participants, but worth it?

I have contempt for the behavior of its contemporary adherents, not the religion per se(or not any more or less than any other religion I suppose).

If you disagree with my observation, why not
articulate an opposing view?

Such as soccer hooligans in England--oh wait, Zelpolator has already told us that the English waiting quietly on line represent a superior culture. This must be revealed truth.

Where do we go to worship this joker, and get copies of his scripture?

Just one more example of the "Good" that religion imposes upon people.

au1929 has provided a good closing statement for this thread as far as I am concerned. Thanks.

Let the other clowns talk among themselves.
I have better things to do. No intelligent discourse here.

The news article stands, however, as testimony to just the sort of ignorance - displayed here by dlowan and setana- that Goethe was talking about.

***

"Lassen Sie die Dummköpfe Sie nicht stören."

Don't let the door hit ya in the ass . . . and by the way, genius, you misspelled my screen name . . .

Another disgruntled visitor bites the dust.