Hundreds killed in Hajj stampede

Setanta wrote:

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Regarding Christians killing Muslims, we are not killing them because they are Muslims, we are killing them because we need to take control of over the oil beneath their feet. Its nothing personal.

I can almost agree with that, with two caveats. The neo-cons are counting on it being something personal to motivate the dull-witted supporters of the Shrub and his Forty Theives of Baghdad; and, we don't necessarily need the oil beneath their feet--but we (meaning some of us) want it, and in the end, that makes no real distinction.

As usual I find it so hard to come to conclusions about what is really going on that I am reduced to making flippant remarks. I'm sure the neocons want to present Islam and the militant muslims as the world wide enemy to take the place of ....er forgotten, what was the last enemy?....oh yes Communism. But I'm equally sure that modern industrialised economies are hooked on oil, maybe a few see an opportunity to make of money but its our addiction that's the crux of it. imho

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Well, my opinion ain't never humble . . . an' i agree with ya completely . . . but don't worry, i won't tell yer friends--i like ya, and wouldn't want to bring ya into disrepute in your community . . .

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JustWonders wrote:

Except that that word, along with "subhuman", only appears in dlowan's posts. She's either engaging in mindreading or putting words into the mouths of others.

Yeah?

Interesting.

What, exactly, do YOU think Zel whatsit is implying.

And here's an answer to your other "question".

Zel thingy is implying that stampedes are a special thing that Muslims do.

He has been presented with clear counterexamples of this. That stampedes are a thing that PEOPLE do.

He may or may not be implying that christians are especially dumb/subhuman whatever it is that he thinks...I am not yet clear on that one....yet he continues to post other threads against Muslims.

I have said that I consider some of the BELIEFS of people who use christianity AND islam to justify prejudices and hateful words and actions.

Spot the difference?

It isn't a hard one to spot, really.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

I've made it clear several times that I dont hate anyone. I hate ideas that lead people to do harm to others. And yes commands to love one another and do unto others as you wish to be done by are noble ideas.

Regarding Christians killing Muslims, we are not killing them because they are Muslims, we are killing them because we need to take control of over the oil beneath their feet. Its nothing personal.

Lol. Well, THAT is different.

Perhaps we are lookijg at the two indane credos of fanatical Islam and fanatical imperialistic capitalism duking it out?

Problem with your argument is this.

Muslims haven't been killing us westerners for a long, long, time.

The score would still be well in the "christian" west's favour, btw.......especially England's, they having taken control of Arab countries at various times.

Do you seriously think it is now Islam suddenly demanding that its followers kill westerners?

Baldercrap.

I say it is people who wish to kill westerners for a variety of political reasons, using Islam to justify their hatred.

And, I wouldn't be so sure re Bush and his crusade.

I so bet he thinks his god told him to kill infidel.

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dlowan wrote:

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
I've made it clear several times that I dont hate anyone. I hate ideas that lead people to do harm to others. And yes commands to love one another and do unto others as you wish to be done by are noble ideas.

Regarding Christians killing Muslims, we are not killing them because they are Muslims, we are killing them because we need to take control over the oil beneath their feet. Its nothing personal.

Lol. Well, THAT is different.

Perhaps we are lookijg at the two indane credos of fanatical Islam and fanatical imperialistic capitalism duking it out?

quite possibly

Problem with your argument is this.

Muslims haven't been killing us westerners for a long, long, time.

7th July 2005 is several months ago, but not a long long time

The score would still be well in the "christian" west's favour, btw.......especially England's, they having taken control of Arab countries at various times.

I wouldnt dispute the C are winning on a kill ratio against the M. Neither would I dispute btw that the Ms have more to feel aggrieved about than us.

Do you seriously think it is now Islam suddenly demanding that its followers kill westerners?

I fear this is so yes. Certainly Sheik Osama bin Laden calls for jihad against the kaffirs. Who else leads the muslims?

Baldercrap.

I say it is people who wish to kill westerners for a variety of political reasons, using Islam to justify their hatred.

I agree. Islam is used to justify killing westerners, because they are westerners.

And, I wouldn't be so sure re Bush and his crusade.

I so bet he thinks his god told him to kill infidel.

Bush is clearly mad, but he has people around him who know what they are doing

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"Muslims haven't been killing us westerners for a long, long, time.

7th July 2005 is several months ago, but not a long long time"

You misunderstand me.

I meant that the practice of killing westerners has made a very recent comeback in Islam.

Steve, if you do not think that the horrible Christian hatefulness can be as, or nearly as, foul as the bad Islamic hatefulness, may I suggest that you do what I did yesterday, when I was googling Islam and killing, to see what their attitude really IS to killing people (they certainly believe in the death penalty, in the sites I found, but only in clear judicial situations...but I really dislike their religion for that, but that is a whol eother matter).....anyhoo ,in this search, I came across christian hate site after christian hate site.

We hear a lot about the hateful Islamic stuff...oddly, we aren't hearing a lot about the horrible crap that is out there on some hateful "christian" sites.

Man, I know where some of the christian nuts here get their **** from now.

Anyhoo, I say that people of ill intent can pervert any doctrine.

Like..."thou shalt not kill" is pretty damn clear, isn't it?

How many christians on this site are strongly supporting killing Iraqis?

If you are saying that Islam is worse re this, (and I am not sure if you are, or not), I remain unconvinced.

They are certainly in a politically motivated period of spreading fanaticism, but I am quite unconvinced that this is especially an Islamic thing.

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BTW...I think we are shadow boxing a bit.....I think you think I think you hate Islam.

I don't.

I do not actually know your attitude, but I believe you when you say you do not hate anyone.

I am arguing with you because this is something that I really am thinking about a lot, and because there HASN'T been hatefulness on this thread, except from Tarrawhatsit.

It is good to be able to have a discussion about this without the hateful folk around....though I bet that has a shelf life, since we are posting so much!

You did say a few things I think I found disturbing on a thread about all this that was around a while back (and that I stopped reading because I dound the hatefulness of some people made me sick) but I have no axe to grind with you

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dlowan wrote:

JustWonders wrote:
Except that that word, along with "subhuman", only appears in dlowan's posts. She's either engaging in mindreading or putting words into the mouths of others.

Yeah?

Interesting.

What, exactly, do YOU think Zel whatsit is implying.

I was sort of thinking along the same lines as Steve - that the thread originator was posting a particular tradition of a particular religion, examining the question of why it continues (or is allowed to continue), even in the face of causing grave harm and sometimes death to the participants.

dlowan wrote:

And here's an answer to your other "question".

Zel thingy is implying that stampedes are a special thing that Muslims do.

That's merely your interpretation, that he was "implying" that. Again, my observation is that he was looking at one tradition of one religion that occurs every year and has similarly tragic results each year. The pilgrimage to the Hajj is a special thing that Muslims do and that was the topic of the thread. The stampede and harm caused are the results.

dlowan wrote:

He has been presented with clear counterexamples of this. That stampedes are a thing that PEOPLE do.

His originating post was to examine a specific and pre-organized religious event in which injuries and death result from stampedes, year after year after year. A random event causing people to stampede and be trampled isn't usually repeated and it also wasn't the topic of his thread. Neither were the events of past similar events by other religions from past eras the topic of his thread.

dlowan wrote:

He may or may not be implying that christians are especially dumb/subhuman whatever it is that he thinks...I am not yet clear on that one....yet he continues to post other threads against Muslims.

He at no time used the words "especially dumb" or "subhuman". Those are your words. Why do you insist he was implying anything more than what he posted. When Steve posted the BBC link to the alleged child abuse by Christians, you didn't accuse him of "implying" that all Christians are especially dumb or subhuman.

dlowan wrote:

I have said that I consider some of the BELIEFS of people who use christianity AND islam to justify prejudices and hateful words and actions.

Spot the difference?

No. You accused him of saying that Muslims are either dumb or subhuman, when he said neither. You attributed those words to him.

Quote:

He appears to be saying that because there are often stampedes at the mecca thing, Muslims are especially dumb, or subhuman or something.

Then you continued:

Quote:

By all means fault people, including Muslims, for the idiocies and cruelties they perpetrate in the name of twisted versions of their faith,

Spot the double-standard? It isn't really difficult to see.

Not everyone who has a criticism of a religion is a hate-monger. By your logic, the participation of Aayan Hirsi Ali in making the film Submission which criticizes the misogyny of Islam, would make her a hate-monger.

Or, the recently released documentary Islam: What the West Needs to Know, and which deals with Islam, it's history, beliefs, and politics, written by well-respected scholars and experts - are they hate-mongers, as well?

I just don't see why examining certain aspects of the Muslim religion has to translate that one is being unfairly critical or being hateful. It's tiresome.

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dlowan wrote:

...
I do not actually know your attitude, but I believe you when you say you do not hate anyone...

Thanks for that. I admit that I have said some strong things against Islam, things which in retrospect could have been better phrased. But my anger is directed at ideas; not at human beings who have fallen unfortunately, imo, under their spell.

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Oh, there you and I have no argument, Steve.

But...here's a thing.

Why are we picking on Islam so much?

What about the ideas of the neocons which are resulting in so much death right now?

What about drunkenness with the idea of the divine right to spread "democracy" around the world in the interests of America and the west, we think, at the point of a sword?

There are so many ologies and isms causing death right now.

Why do you think we in thewest are so focused on Is,am?

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Oh, and it seems Islam believes it can kill when it is attacked, which, of course, is open to major interpretation.

I am not sure if christianity actually gives its followers this right, though they certainly act as though it does.

Mebbe we can chalk another one up for christianity, if it were actually foillowed, if we disapprove of killing?

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dlowan wrote:

...

Why are we picking on Islam so much?...

too late here for considered response, tomorrow nighty night. Is it hot in the warren?

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JustWonders wrote:

dlowan wrote:
JustWonders wrote:
Except that that word, along with "subhuman", only appears in dlowan's posts. She's either engaging in mindreading or putting words into the mouths of others.

Yeah?

Interesting.

What, exactly, do YOU think Zel whatsit is implying.

I was sort of thinking along the same lines as Steve - that the thread originator was posting a particular tradition of a particular religion, examining the question of why it continues (or is allowed to continue), even in the face of causing grave harm and sometimes death to the participants.

dlowan wrote:
And here's an answer to your other "question".

Zel thingy is implying that stampedes are a special thing that Muslims do.

That's merely your interpretation, that he was "implying" that. Again, my observation is that he was looking at one tradition of one religion that occurs every year and has similarly tragic results each year. The pilgrimage to the Hajj is a special thing that Muslims do and that was the topic of the thread. The stampede and harm caused are the results.

dlowan wrote:
He has been presented with clear counterexamples of this. That stampedes are a thing that PEOPLE do.

His originating post was to examine a specific and pre-organized religious event in which injuries and death result from stampedes, year after year after year. A random event causing people to stampede and be trampled isn't usually repeated and it also wasn't the topic of his thread. Neither were the events of past similar events by other religions from past eras the topic of his thread.

dlowan wrote:
He may or may not be implying that christians are especially dumb/subhuman whatever it is that he thinks...I am not yet clear on that one....yet he continues to post other threads against Muslims.

He at no time used the words "especially dumb" or "subhuman". Those are your words. Why do you insist he was implying anything more than what he posted. When Steve posted the BBC link to the alleged child abuse by Christians, you didn't accuse him of "implying" that all Christians are especially dumb or subhuman.

dlowan wrote:
I have said that I consider some of the BELIEFS of people who use christianity AND islam to justify prejudices and hateful words and actions.

Spot the difference?

No. You accused him of saying that Muslims are either dumb or subhuman, when he said neither. You attributed those words to him.

Quote:
He appears to be saying that because there are often stampedes at the mecca thing, Muslims are especially dumb, or subhuman or something.

Then you continued:

Quote:
By all means fault people, including Muslims, for the idiocies and cruelties they perpetrate in the name of twisted versions of their faith,

Spot the double-standard? It isn't really difficult to see.

Not everyone who has a criticism of a religion is a hate-monger. By your logic, the participation of Aayan Hirsi Ali in making the film Submission which criticizes the misogyny of Islam, would make her a hate-monger.

Or, the recently released documentary Islam: What the West Needs to Know, and which deals with Islam, it's history, beliefs, and politics, written by well-respected scholars and experts - are they hate-mongers, as well?

I just don't see why examining certain aspects of the Muslim religion has to translate that one is being unfairly critical or being hateful. It's tiresome.

I think you are being quite wilfully dense about what Zellig thingy was implying.

"dlowan wrote:
"Yes, huge, fervent, crowds are hard to control. "

***
Are the crowds at the Vatican during pilgrimmages or important church occasions anyless fervent?

(they may be larger, but when was the last time someone one crushed to death?).

Is there a qualitative distinction here?"

Have a look at this:

"Can you explain more fully in what way lemming-like religious fanaticism is

"Kinda like the road toll, or allowing mass gun ownership" ?

Feel free to express yourself within the bounds of common sense and good taste. You need not feel constrained to rehearse bland bromides."

Lemming like religiois fanaticism?

What do you think that implies? Really?

"Lord Ellpus seems to have a bit of insight into at least some of the cultural distinctions here.

I have heard it said that one informal definition of irrationality is repeating the same harmful behavior over and over again, but expecting different results each time. This seems relevant to the recurring
episodes of Hajji stoning, trampling, and other advanced forms of spiritual expression."

Trampling is a from of Islamic "spiritual expression"?

Aha. Ok, no especial prejudice here.

Again, clear examples of situations in which NON Muslim crowds trample each other have been given...but Zelig thinks trampling is a form of Islamic "spiritual expression"

This is promising:

"I have contempt for the behavior of its contemporary adherents, not the religion per se(or not any more or less than any other religion I suppose).

If you disagree with my observation, why not
articulate an opposing view?"

Looks as though he is just criticising BEHAVIOUR, and it seems he has contempt for all religions,.

But, he continies to post anti Islamic stuff, not stuff criticising all religions, also, it appears he has come here only to promote his dislike of Islam.

So......I draw the conclusion that he is an anti Islamic x=zwealot from these various bits of evidence.

And your "double standard" is ridiculous.

Where have I said that anyone who has a criticism of a religion is a hate monger? I criticise religion all the time. amd am hence regarded as a hate monger by some of the christians here.

I HAVE said I believe this persona is a hate monger, because he speaks as though all Muslims at Mecca are "lemming like fanatics" AND that trampling is a spiritual expression of theirs.

Do you think these things are true?

And no, I do not think that reasoned and factually based critiques of a religion are hate mongering.

I do think that referring to all a religion's followers as lemming like fanatics IS hate mongering, unless they aARE all demonstrably "lemming like fanatics".

And I think that referring to trampling peoople to death as an expression of a faith IS hate mongering unless it IS an article of their faith to do so.

Are you saying that these things are true of all Muslims?

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I read the thread opener (Hundreds Killed in Hajj Stampede) and didn't think it "implied" anything other than there was a religious tradition that caused numerous people injury and sometimes death and yet the tradition continues to perpetuate itself through its followers.

You commented one way and my comment may have been similar..."Yes, huge, fervent crowds are hard to control and since the event has such a tragic history, wouldn't it be interesting to know what it is in their belief system that compels the pilgrims to return year after year."

It would have been interesting to me to hear from others who were as curious as I. It would have been really interesting to hear from someone who has either participated or plans to participate and their reasons for doing so.

As for the thread's originator using the word "lemming", here's what answers.com has to say:

Quote:

Lemming: The act of following the crowd into an investment that will inevitably head for disaster. And, See Also: Herd Instinct.

You obviously think it was used in a derogatory manner and while you and I might have chosen another descriptive, the word actually was used properly.

He didn't say trampling is a form of Islamic "spiritual expression". You took that out of context, because what he actually said is what you posted:

Quote:

I have heard it said that one informal definition of irrationality is repeating the same harmful behavior over and over again, but expecting different results each time. This seems relevant to the recurring episodes of Hajji stoning, trampling, and other advanced forms of spiritual expression."

Taken in context, he's including trampling along with stoning and other advanced forms of spiritual expression.

I have no comments on his personal opinions regarding religion, just as I wouldn't comment on your personal opinion of religion. That's none of my business, and if he or you hold all religions in contempt, that's surely your right and deserves no comment from me.

Until you professed otherwise, Steve clearly felt compelled to explain to you that he "doesn't hate anyone". This was after your statement, "I DO have a problem with people whose sole aim seems to be to sow hate against ONE religion or creed, and in the west Islam is being regularly demonized and its adherents portrayed as subhuman etc."

No one used the word "hate" and I saw no evidence in the thread originator's opening or subsequent posts to suggest he was trying to demonize Islam and portray its adherents as subhumans. That was all purely your interpretation, and it's not the first time you've used similar language in describing those you perceive to be criticizing Islam or Muslims.

dlowan wrote:

And I think that referring to trampling peoople to death as an expression of a faith IS hate mongering unless it IS an article of their faith to do so.

No, I don't think that is true of all Muslims, but then that is not what the thread originator said. He referred to specific followers (not all Muslims) being trampled to death as a result of their pilgrimage to the Hajj - not as an expression of their faith. Again, you took that out of context.

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Oh, and I meant to add that I don't know this poster and haven't read any of his other postings. I did think this one post of his that I did read was thought-provoking in light of so much in the news these days regarding Muslims and Islam.

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Well, we shall agree to disagree.

I still think you are being quite wilfully blind, and allowing the person's slightly oblique nastiness to fool you, and you no doubt are thinking similar, but 180 degree turned, things about me.

BTW, Muslim 1 has a thread about the Hajj, why not go there and ask?

I would assume it is the same impulse that has driven the religious for millenia to make pilgrimages, (especially, in this case, Muslims, who are enjoined to visit Mecca if at all possible at least once in their lives...look up the history, it is both strange and interesting) despite their dangers. (Imagine the dangers of a pilgrimage from England the the holy land in the middle ages, or even going to Canterbury, a journey for which pilgrims banded together to find some protection from bandits.)

And, I, as an irreligious person, believe, the same impulse that draws thousands together at football fields, (despite the dangers of trampling and soccer hooligans), and to other places of modern worship of the ball and other implements of the worship of sport.......the desire to lose oneself in something bigger than oneself, and to experience an emotional peak in the presence of large numbers of one's fellow worshipper.

In other words, the pursuit of ecstasy.

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******* typos.

Aargh, I don't care any more.

Also, there is a fabulous documentary about the Hajj, from the POV of a young, very modern, English Muslim woman, who goes with her father.

Damned if I can remember the name...

Why do YOU think all humans constantly do things that are going to kill a percentage of us?

I have named a number of activities which have regular death rates....driving would bea very obvious one....

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Too bad they didn't make it to the stoning area... My arm needed a workout.

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"What is the Hajj?

Every able-bodied Muslim is expected to go on the Hajj once
Performing the Hajj at least once in a lifetime is one of the five "pillars", or duties, of Islam for those who can afford it.
Many Muslims save for years in order to perform the pilgrimage. They often have to travel thousands of miles.

Then, once they arrive, they must brave the fierce heat of the desert as they perform the Hajj rituals.

The sheer number of pilgrims - almost two million this year - poses big challenges to the Saudi authorities.

For the Saudi hosts, the event has a special importance.

They are acutely conscious of their responsibility as custodians of the Muslim holy places.

HAJJ DISASTERS
1987: 400 die in Iranian-Saudi confrontation
1990: 1,426 pilgrims killed in tunnel leading to holy sites
1994: 270 killed in stampede
1997: 343 pilgrims die and 1,500 injured in fire
1998: At least 118 trampled to death
2001: 35 die in stampede during stoning
The authorities face formidable problems.

In recent years hundreds have died as a result of demonstrations, fires, stampedes - or just sunstroke and exhaustion.

The Saudi authorities have introduced a quota system to keep down the numbers.

The Valley of Mina has been transformed into a vast encampment of fireproof tents to accommodate the pilgrims........."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3448039.stm

The "stoning of the devil" ritual takes place at the site where the devil supposedly appeared to Abraham......and the action of stoning is supposed to cast out one's own sins. Kinder than the old scapegoat ritual, eh?

This year, if the broadcast I just listened to is current, one poor bastard fell and others went down in the crowd.

If you look at photos, you can see how many people there are, and how easily it could happen.

"Guide to going to Mecca

Pilgrim with his belongings

It's best to travel light, so only take essentials.

Many pilgrims fly to Jeddah, and then travel to Mecca by bus.

Once you get to Mecca, there are two rituals which you can perform; the lesser pilgrimage or Umra, and the main pilgrimage or Hajj.

The Umra is an extra, optional pilgrimage and does not count as the once-in-a-lifetime Hajj. Although it includes some of the rituals of the Hajj, they are shortened and there are fewer of them. Most pilgrims who come for the Hajj arrive a few days before it actually starts and perform Umra first. Combining the Hajj with the Umrah is called a Hajji-Tamattu.
Being Pure

To carry out the pilgrimage rituals you need to be in a state of Ihram, which is a special state of ritual purity.

You do this by making a statement of intention, wearing special white clothes (which are also called Ihram), and obeying the regulations below.

The person on the Hajj may not:

Engage in marital relations
Shave or cut their nails
Use cologne or scented oils
Kill or hunt anything
Fight or argue
Women must not cover their faces, even if they would do so in their home country
Men may not wear clothes with stitching
Bathing is allowed but scented soaps are frowned upon
The Journey of the Hajj

The Hajj is a real pilgrimage - a journey, with rites and rituals to be done along the way. You begin at a place just outside Mecca called the Miqat, or entry station to the Hajj.

There you bathe, put on the Ihram (the special white clothes), make the intention for Umra and begin reciting the Talbiya Du'a (prayer).

The Talbiya Du'a
Here I am at Your service, O Allah, here I am at your service! You have no partner. Here I am at your service. All praise and blessings belong to you. All dominion is yours and You have no partner.

Then you go to the Masjid al Haram and walk around the Ka'ba seven times repeating du’as and prayers. This is called the Tawaf. Afterwards you should sip some Zam Zam water.

Zam Zam water is water from the Zam Zam well, the sacred well which opened in the desert to save Hajira and Is'mail from dying of thirst. (You can learn more about this at the history of the Hajj.)

Next you go to the walkway between the hills of Safa and Marwa and walk back and forth between them seven times.

This completes the Umra portion of the Hajj rituals and some of the Ihram restrictions are relaxed.

Now make your intention for the Hajj and put on the Ihram garments again.

Travel to Mina on the 8th of Dhul Hijjah (a date in the Islamic calendar) and remain there until Fajr (dawn) next morning.

Then you travel to the valley of Arafat and stand in the open praising Allah. The heat of Arabia at midday provides a hint as to what the Day of Judgement will be like.

At the end of the day, travel to Muzdalifa for the night. Gather together 49 or 70 small stones together to use the next day.

One of the pillars of Jamraat

In the morning you return to Mina and throw the stones at pillars called Jamraat. These represent the devil. Then a sacrifice should be made called a Qurbani. Men's heads are shaved and women cut a lock of their hair.

Then return to Mecca and make a Tawaf (this is the ritual of walking around the Ka'aba seven times). Then it's back to Mina for 3 or 4 days, stoning the pillars each day.

Finally do a farewell Tawaf in Masjid-al Haram on the twelfth day of the month of Dhul Hijjah, ask Allah's forgiveness, make du'a and the Hajj is finished.

Many people then go to the Prophet's Mosque in Medina, but this is optional.
A man who has completed the Hajj is called a Hajji, a woman who has completed it is called a Hajjah.

At the end of the Hajj, Muslims from all over the world celebrate the holiday known as the Eid ul Adha or Festival of the sacrifice.

This festival commemorates the obedience of the Prophet Ibrahim when he was ordered to sacrifice his son Is’mail.

Ibrahim proved his love and devotion to Allah by showing his willingness to kill his beloved son if Allah wished it. In the end Ibrahim did not have to kill his son as Allah gave him a ram to sacrifice instead."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/customs/hajj/guide.shtml

Hajj accounts:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/customs/hajj/index.shtml

The ka'aba or kaaba...the centre of the Mecca pilgrimage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka%27aba

The Black Stone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

Interesting to see how many disagreements religions have within themselves!

Summary of the Kaaba:

Kaaba

or Caaba (both: kä´b or kä´b) (KEY) [Arab.,=cube], the central, cubic, stone structure, covered by a black cloth, within the Great Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. The sacred nature of the site predates Islam: tradition says that the Kaaba was built by Adam and rebuilt by Abraham and the descendants of Noah. Also known as the House of God, it is the center of the circumambulations performed during the hajj, and it is toward the Kaaba that Muslims face in their prayers (see liturgy, Islamic). Pre-Islamic Meccans used it as a central shrine housing their many idols, most notable of which were al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat, collectively known as al-Gharaniq or the Daughters of God, and Hubal, a martial deity. The Black Stone, possibly of meteoric origin, is located at one of its outside corners. Also dating from pre-Islamic times as a heavenly relic, this stone is venerated and ritually kissed. Worn hollow by the centuries of veneration, the stone is held together by a wide silver band. The actual structure of the Kaaba has been demolished and rebuilt several times in the course of its history. Around the Kaaba is a restricted area, haram, extending in some directions as far as 12 mi, into which only Muslims may enter.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/ka/Kaaba.html

Big version of the Kaaba info!

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txh/kaaba.htm

Anyhoo, JW, Muslims face the dangers of Mecca cos their religion tells them they oughta....and it is a big oughta.

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Setanta wrote:

Well, my opinion ain't never humble . . . an' i agree with ya completely . . . but don't worry, i won't tell yer friends--i like ya, and wouldn't want to bring ya into disrepute in your community . . .

thank dog for that

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Hundreds killed in Hajj stampede

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