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Dawkins TV Programme. "The Root of All Evil"

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 04:44 am
Back to the programme, and this is what Dawkins writes today in his Newstatesman diary column which if ive infringed copyright, I'll really sorry...


Its been a week of handling fall out from The Root of All evil? my tv documentary about religion. Of course religion is not the root of all evil. No single thing is the root of anything. The question mark was supposed to turn an indefensible title into a debatable topic. Gratifyingly, title not withstanding, the emails letters and telephone calls to Channel 4 have been running two to one in favour. The pros mostly praise Channel 4's couraage in finally saying what many people have been thinking for years. The antis complain that I failed to do justice to "both sides" and that I interviewed fundamentalist extremists rather than the Archbishop of Canterbury.
The balance is (over-)provided by Thought for the Day, Prayer for the Day, Songs of Praise, the Daily Service, Faith to Faith, Choral Evensong, Sunday Half Hour, The story of God, Belief, Beyond Belief and others. Mine was a brief opportunity to put the other side. As for mhy "extremist" interviews, would that Pastor Ted Haggard were extreme. In neo-con America, he is mainstream. President of the 30 million strong National Association of Evangelicals, he has a weekly phone conversation with Bush. My other "extremist" Yousef al Khattab (Joseph Cohen) of Jerusalem, was supposed, as an American Jew turned Israeli settler, turned Muslim, to see both sides and give a balanced perspective. Wrong!
We did invite the Archbishop of Canterbury- and the Chief Rabbi and the Archbishop of Westmister - to be interviewed. All declined, no doubt for good reasons. Happily the Bishop of Oxford accepted and he was as delightful as ever. But you cant judege by example. We dont judge Christians by Hitler's claim to be one, and it is equally irrelevant that many Christians, like many atheists, are nice people. The point is that faith, even moderate faith, is pernicious because it teaches that believing something without evidence is a virtue. Moderates, as Sam Harris shows in his devastating book, The End of Faith, "provide the context in which scriptural literalism and religious violence can never be adequately opposed". Or, in Voltaire's words, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities".
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 05:16 am
Mr Dawkins wrote-

Quote:
The point is that faith, even moderate faith, is pernicious because it teaches that believing something without evidence is a virtue.


That compares moderate faith with nothing.To validate it we would have to see how pernicious unbelief is.We also need a definition of "pernicious".I'm surprised that the editor of the NS didn't spike an article with that in it.He must not think much of the readers.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 05:19 am
Also Steve- is "moderate faith"a possibility.

Dylan said-

You either got faith or you got unbelief-there ain't no neutral ground.

I presume Dawkins means moderate declarations of faith.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 05:26 am
Quote:
Of course religion is not the root of all evil. No single thing is the root of anything.


That's wrong as well.Fornication is the root of all evil.Dawkins just want to be popular so he tells lies about so obvious a truth that there are many songs about "Devil Woman".Also there is the Adam and Eve story.

It is also scientifically obvious that fornication is the root of all evel but if he told them that they would boo him off.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 05:29 am
Definition of pernicious


1. Tending to cause death or serious injury; deadly: a pernicious virus.
2. Causing great harm; destructive: pernicious rumors.
2. Archaic. Evil; wicked.


why would the ed censor Dawkins own diary column? This the NS not the Tablet.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 05:29 am
Mr Dawkins wrote-

Quote:
Gratifyingly, title not withstanding, the emails letters and telephone calls to Channel 4 have been running two to one in favour.


What a slippery sentence for an Oxford professor to go public with.That sentence is pure rubbish.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 05:35 am
spendius wrote:
Also Steve- is "moderate faith"a possibility.

Dylan said-

You either got faith or you got unbelief-there ain't no neutral ground.

I presume Dawkins means moderate declarations of faith.


No Prof Dawkins rejects faith full stop. He may personally like "moderate" religious people, how could someone not like the Bishop of Oxford after all those Thought for the Day slots? but he makes two criticisms, you cant have a pick and mix faith, leaving out the uncomfortable bits. You either got faith or not like what Dylan said. Second criticism...the "moderates" make it very difficult to attack, on an intellectual level, the real dangerous nutters at the fringes. The worthy centre protects the unworthy extremes.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 05:40 am
spendius wrote:
Quote:
Of course religion is not the root of all evil. No single thing is the root of anything.


That's wrong as well.Fornication is the root of all evil.Dawkins just want to be popular so he tells lies about so obvious a truth that there are many songs about "Devil Woman".Also there is the Adam and Eve story.

It is also scientifically obvious that fornication is the root of all evel but if he told them that they would boo him off.
Are you feeling unwell Spendy?
As that great American philosopher said on the tennis court You Cannot Be Serious! And in fact I dont think you are being serious...
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 05:51 am
Of course I'm serious Steve.Expanding populations provide the need for aggression.

It has nothing to do with religion.The native Australians,as far as I know,had no wars because they had plenty of room and a stable,small population for thousands of years.

The basic worry of Northern Ireland protestants is being outbred (out voted) by a Catholic population with a higher fertility rate.It is getting that way in parts of America with various ethnic groups.

"Go forth and multiply" is a war cry.

Sell Dawkins stock Steve.I could pick more holes in his NS extract.I thought 4 enough.

I know what pernicious means.The main point,which you let slip by,is how pernicious would general unbelief be.That's a guess.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 06:06 am
spendius wrote:
I know what pernicious means.The main point,which you let slip by,is how pernicious would general unbelief be.That's a guess.

I didn't pick up on it not wishing to point out your schoolboy error of logic in trying to prove something invalid by comparison with its opposite.

There's a further error in saying fornication is the root of all evil, because you really mean excessive population and competition for scarce resources is the root of all evil. Ever heard of contraception? Or is it the act itself you regard as evil?
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 06:52 am
Steve wrote-

Quote:
I didn't pick up on it not wishing to point out your schoolboy error of logic in trying to prove something invalid by comparison with its opposite.


I did no such thing Steve.It was Mr Dawkins who made the error.I merely pointed it out.He said belief was pernicious in isolation as if unbelief didn't have possible consequences which may,or may not,be more pernicious.I wasn't trying to prove anything valid or otherwise apart from Mr Dawkins's error or possible cynicism.

Actually Steve,if we are going to be careful,I ought to point out that there are different meanings to "fornication". Just to set the record straight I used it as shorthand for "the ejaculation of semen in sexual congress onto an egg capable at the time of being fertilised".

Hence sexual congress is not fornication when blocking mechanisms are in place.I think the Oxford restricts the word to unmarried partners but that seems odd to me and wooly.

I'm using Mr Dawkins's definition of "evil" too.As you say,competition for scarce resources,one of which is breeding women,is the real cause of pain and suffering in wars and such like and that competition is caused by population density in the main.
I think you have put the Iraq problem down to an oil grab on behalf of an exploding population yourself but correct me if I'm wrong on that.The population of America when the constitution was written was 15 million.It is now 280 million.

Of course power elites are a cause too.

I don't say the act I defined is "evil".I say it is the principle cause of all the pain and suffering.

I agree with the Pope though on contraception.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 07:22 am
So you strongly disapprove of fornication, meaning- by your definition - sexual union without contraception and thus fertilisation- this leading to population pressure and war? So presumably sex ok if pregnacy is prevented? If its just for fun, with no chance of procreation? Yet you agree with the Pope who not only disapproves of contraception, but has banned it for Catholics. Surely you see the conflicting positions here Spendy? Many people believe its actually the Catholic position on contraception which has led to explosive population growth (and its associated pressures) to say nothing of HIV/Aids which is actually the root of all evil, not fornication itself however you want to define it.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 08:11 am
Steve.

I could only be said to disapprove of "fornication" if I disapprove of evil.

What I'm pointing out is that if you disapprove of evil you disapprove of fornication because all evil is caused by the consequences of fornication.If you have a scenario with 7 billion on the planet's surface isn't pain and suffering inevitable.I recognise that-others slip away for career purposes and invent justifications.

Sexual union without contraception doesn't necessarily lead to conception.With NO chance of conception I wouldn't call it sex at all.It is bodily contact between persons just like a handshake is.


How on earth can the Catholic position on anything lead to population explosion.Fornication is what leads to that.Over population is self correcting.The official demeaning of women,contraception,is not self correcting once established in dogma.For sure that's hard but there it is.I don't think there's the slightest chance of the Vatican changing its position on any of these contentious positions.

"Do you ever wonder just what it is that God requires?
You think he's just an errand boy to satisfy your wandering desires."

Wnen You Gonna Wake Up---Bob Dylan.

The Pope isn't an errand boy either.

This subject Steve is very complex.
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material girl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 09:21 am
spendius wrote:
Steve.

I could only be said to disapprove of "fornication" if I disapprove of evil.

What I'm pointing out is that if you disapprove of evil you disapprove of fornication because all evil is caused by the consequences of fornication.

HOW?


If you have a scenario with 7 billion on the planet's surface isn't pain and suffering inevitable.

WHY SHOULD THERE BE PAIN AND SUFFERING<.WHY CANT WE GET ALONG AN HELP EACH OTHER.

I recognise that-others slip away for career purposes and invent justifications.

Sexual union without contraception doesn't necessarily lead to conception.With NO chance of conception I wouldn't call it sex at all.It is bodily contact between persons just like a handshake is.

THEN IVE HAD SEX WITH PEOPLE I DONT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH.
I WISH ID WORN GLOVES.


How on earth can the Catholic position on anything lead to population explosion.

PEOPLE HAVE SEX, THERE IS NO STOPPING IT.YES, PEOPLE CAN HAVE SEX AND IT WONT LEAD TO A BABY BUT SEX IS THE ONLY WAY BABIES ARE MADE.IF CONTRACEPTION IS BANNED THEN OF COURSE IT LEADS TO OVERPOPULATION.
EG AREAS HAVE POWERCUTS FOR HOURS, THEY DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, 9 MONTHS LATER WE HEAR OF A INCREASE IN BIRTH RATE.

Fornication is what leads to that.Over population is self correcting.

HOW IS IT SELF CORRECTING?DO YOU MEAN FAMINE, DISEASE?

The official demeaning of women,contraception,is not self correcting once established in dogma.

I DIDNT UNDERSTAND THAT, CAN YOU EXPLAIN IT PLEASE.

For sure that's hard but there it is.I don't think there's the slightest chance of the Vatican changing its position on any of these contentious positions.

THATS A SHAME BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MOVING WITH THE TIMES AND THEYL BE STUCK IN THE PAST WHICH IS WHY PEOPLE WONT CONVERT TO CATHOLICISM.

"Do you ever wonder just what it is that God requires?WHAT TO WE REQUIRE OF GOD
You think he's just an errand boy to satisfy your wandering desires."

Wnen You Gonna Wake Up---Bob Dylan.

The Pope isn't an errand boy either.HE IS A SPOKESPERSON THAT REPRESENTS GOD, ITS A SHAME HE PUSHES PEOPLE AWAY.

This subject Steve is very complex.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 09:26 am
material girl wrote:

THEN IVE HAD SEX WITH PEOPLE I DONT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH.
I WISH ID WORN GLOVES
This is why HM Queen wears prophylactics on both hands Smile
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 09:36 am
Not only that Steve.

Look at the fuss when the Australian Prime Minister placed his hand on her back in a protective gesture.


Material Girl-Take them one at once and I'll maybe give it a try.As I said to Steve-it's complex.And it's sensitive too.
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material girl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 10:04 am
If we shake someones hand then wash them is that considered an abortion?
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 10:22 am
MG-

Now you are being a bit silly.

Have you never read Germaine Greer.She's not famous for nothing.The Female Eunuch and Sex And Destiny.
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material girl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 10:34 am
spendius wrote:
MG-

Now you are being a bit silly.

Have you never read Germaine Greer.She's not famous for nothing.The Female Eunuch and Sex And Destiny.


Me silly!

It wasnt me that liked sex that didnt lead to procreation as the same as a handshake!!
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 10:59 am
MG-

The use of "handshake" is a literary device to give emphasis.

Where would you draw the line.Moving more together from a handshake would a kiss on the hand French style get nearer.Then keep going.Where's the line.

My definition doesn't have need of a line.Yours seems to involve a scale of bodily contact.At what point do you call it "sex" and if some people draw the line at a different place how do you discuss "sex" with them.
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