Robertson Links Sharon Stroke, God's Wrath

Perhaps THIS may help to clear up the Jewish question

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Thanx Intrepid! :wink:

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joefromchicago wrote:

yitwail wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
"Christian Jew" is about as oxymoronic as "rap music," "temporary tax," or "compassionate conservative."

i'm not sure about that, if "secular Jew" isn't an oxymoron. the last time i heard, secular Jews made up a plurality of Israelis. then there's this comment from a PBS show:

Quote:
Forty-five percent of American Jews are secular -- the highest rate of any religion. But "secular" includes people who may not practice their religion but who believe in God. Of secular Jews, 34 percent don't believe in God. Still, they consider themselves Jewish.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week609/feature.html

I'm not entirely up on my Judaic theology, but if it is expected that all Jews actively practice their faith in order to be considered a Jew, and if "secular Jew" is defined as a person who had previously practiced the Jewish faith but no longer does so, then a "secular Jew" is synonymous with "non-Jewish Jew." It would, therefore, be as oxymoronic as a "christian Jew."

Joe,

I'm in your corner most all of the time, but this isn't one of them. It's been pointed out here that being Jewish means being of a certain race. Yes, it definitely can be a faith, but it is always a race. A person of another race can be a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew in terms of faith. He can never belong to the Jewish race if he wasn't born as a member of the Jewish race.

That got wordy, but I think you should get it!

Anon

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Intrepid wrote:

Perhaps THIS may help to clear up the Jewish question

I should have looked at this first ... this should do the trick quite well!! Thanks,

Anon

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joefromchicago wrote:

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
I know quite a few people who consider themselves "jews," but who do not consider themselves followers of Judaism. Are you saying they are fooling themselves?

I don't know them, but it's quite possible. Or they could simply be retarded. I'd have to know more about them to find out.

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
What identity are they qualified to claim?

I have no idea. They could be identify themselves by their location, their hair color, their occupation, their hobbies, their sexual orientation, their favorite character from the "Our Gang" comedies -- what they couldn't do, however, is accurately identify themselves as Jews.

Really, I don't know why this is so difficult to grasp. Anyone who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ cannot be a Jew, any more than he or she can be a Moslem, a Buddhist, a Zoroastrian, or an atheist. Likewise, someone who does not believe in the divinity of Christ can be all sorts of things, but s/he cannot be a christian.

Why is is so difficult for you to grasp that an identity described as "jewish" has moved beyond observing the tenets of Judaism?

How else do you explain aetheists who might sock you in your arrogant jaw if you told them they can not lay claim to being a "Jew?"

Good grief, you're not a dread fundamentalist are you?

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<sigh> I hate these questions.

Okay, here's what I know, from every Rabbi I have ever known.

You are born Jewish if your mother was a Jew. You can convert to Judaism if you were not born that way. It's an extensive process. But you need not practice in order to be Jewish if you were born into it or have converted into it. Oh, and yes, Israel is a Jewish nation. And Spain is a Catholic nation. One need not be a Catholic to live in or support Spain or think Spain is cool. Same with Israel and being Jewish.

However, people who profess a belief in Jesus Christ being their savior are, by definition, Christians. This is regardless of however they were born. They accept Jesus and they become Christians. I am unsure if any more of a conversion process is required but my understanding has always been that people who believe in Jesus are Christians.

Anglicans, Baptists, Calvinists, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Russian Orthodox, etc. -- what they all have in common is that they all share a belief in Jesus. None of them see Muhammed, Moses, Buddha or even Sharon Stone as their savior. They have one major thing in common -- they all believe in Jesus.

Jews do not believe in Jesus. We believe in the concept of a Messiah but we believe that there have been several false Messiahs (such as Sabbatai Zvi) and that the real Messiah has not yet come. Hence we cannot, by definition, see Jesus as the Messiah. This is regardless of the fact that Jesus lived and died a Jew -- Christianity is based upon how a certain group of people related to Jesus both before and after his death. But if Jesus had been a Buddhist rather than a Jew, Buddhists would not suddenly be some offshoot of Christianity. They'd still be Buddhists.

So -- and I know this was asked on another topic but I'm going to answer this here -- Jews for Jesus are, by definition, not Jews at all. Rather, they are misnamed Christians. The Jews for Jesus movement is, at best, misleading. At worst, it is a tool for conversion, in order to convince less observant (or knowledgeable) folk that they can be both. But they can't. They are Christians who were born Jewish and nothing more, just as a Christian who converts to Judaism stops being a Christian and instead is a Jew who was born a Christian.

As for the children of mixed marriages, if the mother is Jewish, the child is considered to be born Jewish. But if the child accepts Jesus then the child has become a Christian. And if the child performs Christian rituals (e. g. a Christmas tree in December, Easter egg hunting, etc.) but does not accept Jesus as a savior then the child is born Jewish but not practicing Judaism, and may be considered as behaving culturally Christian. I realize these are long explanations. Everyone wants a quickie, nice, clean, label, but there just isn't one.

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jespah - thank you!
if I might ask? What do most Jews think of Christians in general?

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So what about me I'm not sure I can even explain it but I'm a Christian but something inside says Jewish much of the time?

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thanks jespah, and an apology in advance for asking you another question, but would you agree that secular Jews--and let's define that as Jews who do not actively practice Judaism--are still Jews?

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Oh, I'd say secular Jews are still Jewish. Gosh, I hope so, or suddenly I'm not Jewish. I don't attend synagogue much and stopped keeping kosher when I left my folks' house, but I still feel I'm a Jew. Thing is, the sects in Judaism are a lot less clearly defined than those in Christianity, so essentially you can almost shuttle among them depending upon how intensely you practice. I was raised in the Conservative sect but practice so little these days that I should probably be called Reform although, at the last Bat Mitzvah I was at, it all came back, reading Hebrew, singing prayers, etc.

Went out with a guy in college who was raised Reform, his father had become Conservative in his (the father's second marriage) and my ex's older brother had moved to Israel and become Orthodox. So three very closely related men, a father and two of his three sons, were in three separate sects. This is not unheard of.

As for what Jews think of Christians, I can only say what I think since, of course, I can't speak for anyone but myself. They're people and I like to think I treat people as individuals and think of them specially and individually. My only concern/peeve is people trying to convert me. This hasn't happened much since I graduated college (over 20 years ago), it's not like this is something I contend with every day, but I would and do consider that disrespectful of my beliefs and decisions.

Oh, and I should mention, I suppose, that I am related to more than one non-Jew (they all seem to be Catholics but that wasn't by design as none of these folks are related to each other, except through me). Smile

My sister-in-law is married to a Catholic man and they are raising their son Catholic. My cousin M___ is now divorced from his Catholic wife. Their sons have been raised under both traditions but I don't know what their sons' personal beliefs are (we don't see these people too often). And my cousin A___ is married to S___, they have two kids and two grandchildren and their children were raised Jewish but I think their daughter does not practice and I think the grandchildren (they are the daughter's kids) aren't being raised as Jews. But I love all of these people; they're family even though last month they had trees instead of or in addition to menorahs.

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yitwail wrote:

perhaps *you* expect all Jews to practice Judaism, but i suspect many Jews have no such expectation.

No, I have no such expectation. That's why I put my response to you in the subjunctive.

yitwail wrote:

my understanding is that anyone who's mother is Jewish is a Jew. by analogy with Christianity, i expect that most Christians would consider anyone who's been baptised to be Christian, regardless of an individual's lack of devotion.

If Jews follow the rule of "once a Jew, always a Jew," then adherence to ritual or belief would be largely irrelevant. Judaism, then, would be little more than a set of odd, meaningless gestures and customs, passed down through the generations like blond hair or hemophilia. I doubt that's the case, but I suppose it's possible. On the other hand, I certainly know of some christians who do not follow the rule of "once a christian, always a christian." Indeed, there are quite a few christians out there who don't consider Catholics to be christians.

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sounds like an interesting family you've got, jespah. Smile

i just remembered a conversation with a receptionist who claimed to be Jewish & Egyptian, had tattoos and a pierced tongue, wore goth outfits, and was working on a website to sell video games. anyway, she claimed to have been at a party with Menachem Begin in attendance, where eveyone was snarfing shrimp. ;-)

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Excellent! Smile

My mother and I were vacationing in New Orleans (alas, this was long before Katrina, it was '84 or '85 I think) and we came across the Kosher Creole Cookbook in a bookstore. Of course we had to buy it. The clerk who rang it up was a nice-looking fellow with a heavy Scottish brogue who commented that we were the only people who'd bought a copy of the book and that he was also Jewish, and from Edinburgh. Nu, how did a Jew end up in Scotland?

As the clerk told the story, his grandfather paid passage to America out of Russia and the steamship company took his grandfather (and many other Jews) as far as Scotland and left them there. Swindled but kinda liking the new place, the guy's ancestors settled there.

My previous post ain't the half of my odd family. We're from: Romania, Russia, Poland, Austria, Spain (yeah, I'm a little Sephardic in there), Sweden, Israel and Italy. And Tennessee. Smile

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Anon-Voter wrote:

Joe,

I'm in your corner most all of the time, but this isn't one of them. It's been pointed out here that being Jewish means being of a certain race. Yes, it definitely can be a faith, but it is always a race. A person of another race can be a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew in terms of faith. He can never belong to the Jewish race if he wasn't born as a member of the Jewish race.

That got wordy, but I think you should get it!

Anon

The entire concept of "race" is of dubious value at best; when applied to religious belief it is positively nonsensical. If "a person of another race can be a ... Jew in terms of faith," but can "never belong to the Jewish race if he wasn't born as a member of the Jewish race," then you're saying that ther are Jews (adherents to Judaism) out there who aren't Jews (members of the Jewish race). And, conversely, there are Jews (members of the Jewish race) out there who aren't Jews (adherents to the Jewish faith). The fact that, according to you, there can be two different types of "non-Jewish Jews" should call into question the very notion of "Jewishness."

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joefromchicago, i'm aware of doctrinal differences between Christian sects...if it wasn't for doctrinal differences, there wouldn't be so many sects i should think. i overstated my case when i claimed most Christians would consider a lapsed Christian to still be Christian; i should have said "many" would take that position, but that's just my opinion not based on any hard evidence.

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Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Why is is so difficult for you to grasp that an identity described as "jewish" has moved beyond observing the tenets of Judaism?

If observing the tenets of Judaism is irrelevant to whether one is Jewish or not, then I would agree that Jewishness is nothing more than a genealogical trait. But then that would make Judaism something other than a religion.

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

How else do you explain aetheists who might sock you in your arrogant jaw if you told them they can not lay claim to being a "Jew?"

Misplaced hostility? Outwardly directed anti-Semitism? Grand mal seizure?

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Good grief, you're not a dread fundamentalist are you?

It is indeed a sad day when I have to preach the tenets of christianity to the christians.

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jespah, your story had me trying to think of common Jewish surnames in Scotland; something starting with Mac or Mc, obviously, but i can only think of McDavid. ;-)

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yitwail that is funny - I used to tell people I was an Irish Jew Embarrassed

many years ago

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yitwail wrote:

jespah, your story had me trying to think of common Jewish surnames in Scotland; something starting with Mac or Mc, obviously, but i can only think of McDavid. ;-)

What, no one's named MacBernstein? Or O'Stein?

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jespah

just curious where is RR? right now

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Robertson Links Sharon Stroke, God's Wrath

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