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The Abramoff scandal investigation

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 02:03 pm
How many aliases have you actually had here now?
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 03:28 pm
Actually, I put very little stock in indictments of anyone.

I have the distinct displeasure of serving on a Grand Jury. Indictments are a dime a dozen, even those of high-ranking administration officials. In a Grand Jury, only the prosecutor presents evidence (to a layman jury; lawyers are typically not called to serve), only prosecution witnesses are brought to the court and only 16 out of 23 jurors must vote to indict. It's a rubber-stamp procedure for the prosecutor and as a result, 99.9% of targeted people get indicted. Those that are eventually convicted are far, far less.

It's actually far more remarkable that targets are NOT indicted (i.e., Karl Rove). This also causes me to look with exceptionally jaded eyes at prosecutors so incompetent that it takes them four Grand Juries to bring an indictment (i.e., Ronnie Earle in the Delay case)
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 04:03 pm
MM
Agnew, another crooked REPUBLICAN. Evil or Very Mad
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 12:02 pm
slkshock7 wrote:
Indictments are a dime a dozen, even those of high-ranking administration officials. )



True. Indictments of Republican politicians are a dime a dozen.

Quote:

Those that are eventually convicted are far, far less.


Far, far less? Define far, far less, please.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 12:05 pm
A Tip for the Cowardly Press Corps


Quote:

A Tip for the Cowardly Press Corps
By Joe Conason
Salon.com

Friday 20 January 2006

Scott "Stonewall" McClellan arrogantly insists on "specific" questions about Abramoff's ties to the White House. OK, here's one: Did Bush meet with the lobbyist on May 9, 2001?

One of the president's top fundraisers pleads guilty to felony fraud in a major Washington bribery scandal - a scandal in which he plays the central role as a super-lobbyist handing out checks and favors to members of Congress. The crooked fundraiser is a close friend and associate of the president's top political advisor and deputy chief of staff, whom he has known for more than two decades. His former assistant now works in the White House as personal assistant to the deputy chief of staff. The fundraiser was awarded a place on the president's Department of the Interior transition team, and constantly exploited his White House connections to impress his clients.

The fundraiser described above is of course Jack Abramoff, whose connections to the Bush White House, the president and Karl Rove may yet prove to be a crucial aspect of the lobbying scandal. To date, however, members of the Washington press corps - from the New York Times bureau to the host of "Hardball"! - have displayed scant interest in discovering how extensive those connections actually were.

And so far, press secretary Scott McClellan has easily turned aside the occasional desultory questions about Abramoff's access to the president and the White House without providing any real answers.

By now it is clear that he doesn't intend to provide full and candid answers, despite his promises to "look into" the questions. He has revealed only that Abramoff attended two White House Chanukah parties sometime in the distant past and met with "staff" on several occasions. Beyond that he has refused to provide details, photographs or any other information.

On Tuesday, when reporters inquired again about "staff-level meetings" with Abramoff, the press secretary bristled. With his harsh retort to NBC correspondent David Gregory, which can be viewed at Crooks and Liars, McClellan tried to shut down further questioning on the subject.

The first question on the topic, asked by another reporter, was whether McClellan had "an update for us on any records of phone calls or e-mails between staff members and Mr. Abramoff, or photos of the president with him?"

"No," replied the press secretary. "As I indicated yesterday, we're not going to engage in some sort of fishing expedition. I know there are some that want to play partisan politics, and do so."

In the brief exchange that followed, McClellan told members of the White House press that they would be getting no further information about Abramoff from him, unless they could give him a compelling reason for their questions.

Declining to say whether the White House figures who met with Abramoff were "senior staff," or what they discussed with the lobbyist in those meetings, McClellan concluded with a slight smirk: "And if you have anything specific, I'll be glad to take a look into it."

"He's pled guilty to some serious charges," ventured the questioner. "And so are you insinuating something?" barked McClellan. "We're just trying to find out the facts." "Well, if you've got something to bring to my attention, do so, and then I'll be glad to look into it." At that point, the exasperated Gregory broke in. "Scott, that's not a fair burden to place on us. This is a guy who is a tainted lobbyist, and he has connections - we want to know - with whom in the White House. You shouldn't demand that we give you something specific to go check it out. I mean, this guy is radioactive in Washington. And he knows guys like Karl Rove. So did he meet with him or not ... Don't put it on us to bring something specific. It's a specific question about a specific individual. Can you tell us if he met with Karl Rove?" Again McClellan claimed, "We don't discuss staff-level meetings." "Of course you do," Gregory interrupted, "whenever you want to discuss staff-level meetings. And if Karl Rove, who has ties to Ralph Reed, which he does, we want to know if he has ties to Jack Abramoff, and if they met."

Finally, McClellan accused Gregory of "insinuating" that Abramoff had pursued "pending business," meaning issues of concern to his clients, with members of the White House staff. "There's been no suggestion of anything like that out of this White House," said McClellan.. "I'm just asking," Gregory replied, "I'm not suggesting." "No, you're insinuating," scolded McClellan. "Go ahead. This is a gentleman who is being held to account for the wrongdoing he was involved in. He is someone who, through himself and his clients, contributed to both Democrats and Republicans. And it was outrageous what he was involved in doing and he needs to be held to account, and he is being held to account by the Department of Justice." Nobody else spoke up, as they surely would if they cared about the question, and on the issue of Abramoff's dealings with the White House, McClellan has escaped accountability.

Now under different circumstances - for example, if the president were named Bill Clinton - this sort of scandal stonewalling would only fan the firestorm of demands for information and charges of cover-up. There is no doubt that McClellan could find out exactly when Abramoff had visited the White House over the past five years and whom he saw. The process of compiling that information should take less than a single day.

Doesn't everyone still remember the logs kept by the Secret Service, which identify every White House visitor on every date? The press rightly demanded access to those records during the Monica Lewinsky investigation. Why not now?

Actually, it would be surprising if McClellan and Rove had not requisitioned all those records already for their own purposes. The Bush operation is competent in nothing if not politics and communications - indeed it seems competent at very few other functions of governing - and no competent political operation would have failed to examine its own vulnerability on this issue long ago.

McClellan, however, is still claiming not to know whether the disgraced lobbyist ever met with Bush. Two weeks ago, he claimed that the president "does not know Abramoff, nor does the president recall ever meeting him."

The president may not recall meeting with Abramoff, but others say they remember a meeting with him in the White House that the lobbyist arranged and attended. It was a very specific meeting, as McClellan might say, on a specific date.

On May 9, 2001, as Lou Dubose reported last June in the Texas Observer, Abramoff ushered the chiefs of the Coushatta and Choctaw tribal councils into a 15-minute Oval Office meeting with Bush. They also had lunch in the White House. For this swift brush with the president, the tribal chiefs paid dearly, including $25,000 to Abramoff himself, an additional $25,000 to Americans for Tax Reform (the outfit led by Republican eminence Grover Norquist, a longtime associate of Abramoff's and Rove's) and millions more in contributions to political causes and "charities" overseen by Abramoff.

According to Dubose, the Coushatta chief, a man named Lovelin Poncho, had initially denied visiting the White House with Abramoff. But under pressure from tribal opponents, he admitted the meeting last summer. Dubose has interviewed others present at the meeting who confirmed that Abramoff was there. In his Texas Observer article, Dubose reproduces several documents confirming the meeting and Norquist's role.

Some brave soul in the White House press corps should ask Scott McClellan a "specific" question about that meeting on May 9, 2001, and suggest that he check the Secret Service's White House logs for the names of Abramoff and the tribal council chiefs. Someone should start asking the members of the Coushatta and Choctaw tribal councils about that date as well. The president meets with many people and cannot be expected to remember everyone - even if they raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for him, perhaps. But the tribal chiefs are likely to remember the day they met George W. Bush in the White House, who brought them there - and how much they had to pay for the privilege.

0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 12:17 pm
Roxxxanne wrote:
A Tip for the Cowardly Press Corps

Quote:
A Tip for the Cowardly Press Corps
By Joe Conason
Salon.com

Friday 20 January 2006

Scott "Stonewall" McClellan arrogantly insists on "specific" questions about Abramoff's ties to the White House. OK, here's one: Did Bush meet with the lobbyist on May 9, 2001? [..] To date, however, members of the Washington press corps - from the New York Times bureau to the host of "Hardball"! - have displayed scant interest in discovering how extensive those connections actually were.

How quickly things can change...

A Picture Worth Less Than A Thousand Words
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 12:52 pm
Before everybody raises a stink about any pictures of Bush and Abramoff,lets remember something.

There are pictures of Clinton meeting with a known drug dealer in the WH also.
It turns out that it was a recieving line,and the President had never met the man before or after that.

Now,if the left can excuse that,then they must excuse this supposed picture of Bush and Abramoff.

Its the same thing in both instances.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 01:05 pm
Yeah, pretty much.

(You didnt think that the pictures of Clinton meeting with a known drug dealer in the WH was an issue then, MM?)
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Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 01:16 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Before everybody raises a stink about any pictures of Bush and Abramoff,lets remember something.

There are pictures of Clinton meeting with a known drug dealer in the WH also.
It turns out that it was a recieving line,and the President had never met the man before or after that.

Now,if the left can excuse that,then they must excuse this supposed picture of Bush and Abramoff.

Its the same thing in both instances.


Poor MM and his pitiful moaning and whining "Clinton blah, blah, blah". Wah, Wah, Wah .... Boo Hoo, Boo Hoo ... Whine, Whine, Snivel Snivel ... You really need some pyschological help there you big baby!!

Anon
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 03:33 pm
nimh wrote:
Yeah, pretty much.

(You didnt think that the pictures of Clinton meeting with a known drug dealer in the WH was an issue then, MM?)


No,I didn't think it was an issue.
Having been thru one of those lines,I know the President poses for pictures with everyone in that line.
So,a pic like that only means that the Pres shook someones hand,it doesn't mean that they know each other or that they make deals together.

Anon,
Pull your head out of your rear end and read what I wrote.
I was not attacking Clinton,just pointing out the truth about those pictures.
You need to stop being so defensive and read what is written,not what you suppose was written.

Every President since the invention of the camera has had those receiving line pics taken,even Clinton.
They mean nothing,and are good as a souvenir,nothing more.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 03:45 pm
Quote:
Its the same thing in both instances.


No, it isn't. Bush attended some meetings that Abramoff was at.

These guys lie, and lie, and lie... and then they lie some more when called on it. And people just keep eating it up. It's crazy.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 06:19 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Its the same thing in both instances.


No, it isn't. Bush attended some meetings that Abramoff was at.

These guys lie, and lie, and lie... and then they lie some more when called on it. And people just keep eating it up. It's crazy.

Cycloptichorn


MM is too busy being psychotic about Clinton ... He reminds me of Massagatto, only Massagatto has moments of lucidity.

Anon
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 06:50 pm
He was actually not blaming Clinton for something, for this once, Anon - didnt you read his post?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 07:15 pm
If you want to compare Bush's meetings with Abramoff to meetings with Clinton then you need to select someone that is a closer comparison

Charlie Trie had picture taken with CLinton. Trie was a large fundraiser for Clinton. Trie was convicted of 2 misdemeanors for his political fundraising activities. Trie was alleged to have been paid for arranging a meeting in the White House of client and Clinton. Clinton denied he knew Trie had committed crimes

Jack Abramoff had picture taken with Bush. Abramoff was a large fundraiser for Bush. Abramoff was convicted of 3 felonies for his political lobbying activities. Abramoff was allegedly paid for arranging a meeting in the White House of a client and Bush. Bush denied he knew Abramoff or Abramoff's crimes.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 07:19 pm
Parados, I pop in on this thread and here you are again, defending Clinton taking Chinese campaign money of all things. Sheesh. Wonders will never cease.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 08:11 pm
nimh wrote:
He was actually not blaming Clinton for something, for this once, Anon - didnt you read his post?


It's just that Clinton is always on his mind! I read the post.

Anon
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 08:18 pm
Anon-Voter wrote:
nimh wrote:
He was actually not blaming Clinton for something, for this once, Anon - didnt you read his post?


It's just that Clinton is always on his mind! I read the post.

Anon


Again with the exageration.
Clinton is almost never on my mind.
I have a life,and you apparently dont.
Only when there is a comparison do I even mention his name.
If you are comparing presidents and their actions,then it is normal to compare any president to the previous one.
Sorry if that bothers you,but I have more important things to do then worry about him.

BTW anon,
What happened to your plan to ressurect Abuzz?
You had a grand scheme,and it fell thru.
WHY?
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 09:59 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Anon-Voter wrote:
nimh wrote:
He was actually not blaming Clinton for something, for this once, Anon - didnt you read his post?


It's just that Clinton is always on his mind! I read the post.

Anon


Again with the exageration.
Clinton is almost never on my mind.
I have a life,and you apparently dont.
Only when there is a comparison do I even mention his name.
If you are comparing presidents and their actions,then it is normal to compare any president to the previous one.
Sorry if that bothers you,but I have more important things to do then worry about him.

BTW anon,
What happened to your plan to ressurect Abuzz?
You had a grand scheme,and it fell thru.
WHY?


Not that I would share it with someone with your mouth!!

Anon
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 08:45 pm
I haven't followed this thread that closely, and frankly, does anybody know anything for sure until Abramoff fingers them in court? It is not illegal to get donations is it? One must prove that a lawmaker agreed to do something specifically as a favor in exchange for money. And often they would vote that way anyway, so no proof of a bribe there. That is pretty hard to prove. And when you look at Abramoff, he is small fry compared to the thousands of lobbyists. Peruse through the following site:

http://www.crp.org/lobbyists/index.asp

Compared to Abramoff involving what, $300,000 or something, correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm sure somebody will, lobbying groups involve hundreds of millions, billions of dollars. We are talking about industries representing their interests, big labor, medical interests, environmental groups, single issue groups such as abortion rights and gay rights, pro-life, indian tribes, gambling, probably the mafia, the list goes on. To be honest, Abramoff strikes me as a two-bit player here. Probably a crook. Probably one of countless crooks in Washington.

As I see it, most people in Washington are there because they have an agenda, a set of beliefs, whether they are liberal or conservative. Unless they are totally crooked, they will usually vote according to their political philosophy. I don't think there is a great number of them that go to a lobbyist and say, I will cast a vote for you if you give me a couple hundred thou. Once the lobbying groups identify those people that align with their political goals, they will in turn donate and line up behind those particular people for the most part in efforts to further bolster their position with information and to support their re-election. But those people would probaby vote that way regardless. Lobbyists are legal. Donations are legal. And there is plenty of money flowing to both parties. If you don't believe it, check out the link above. Alot more than little old Abramoff, who is a fly speck on the wall in Washington.

So has Abramoff implicated one person yet? So far, it all looks like speculation.

One thing we do know for sure, even though donations by lobbying groups are legal, contributions from foreign sources is illegal, big time.

http://www.mega.nu/ampp/china/j101.html
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jan, 2006 09:08 pm
okie wrote:
Parados, I pop in on this thread and here you are again, defending Clinton taking Chinese campaign money of all things. Sheesh. Wonders will never cease.
What the f***? Where did I defend Clinton in my statement okie? I made a comparison and didn't say a thing about either. What kind of drugs are you on?
0 Replies
 
 

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