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The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 02:32 am
I think you missed just one point JLN, and that is that $400, or even $800 or $1200, will not encourage many purchases of durable goods, except for some one-time purchasing by those with several children and aging furniture or apppliances. This isn't an increase in take home pay, and many, if not most, will react as they did when the $300 Lieberman check was sent out, they'll pay off small debt, pay down on the line of credit, and maybe have a nice meal out--it won't necessarily reassure people about their economic futures. Only sustained growth in durable goods sales will convince the money boys that times are looking up, and the Feds sucking up most of the available credit capital to feed an obscene deficit makes such a trend unlikely--job creation can only come when there is lots of capital available to small and medium businesses which have a reasonable expectation of expanding sales to justify taking more loans, or stretching the line of credit.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 02:46 am
True, all true, S, and they are not going to get that either from this bill.
No blip, no long term growth, no new jobs. What's their point? Could it just be to cut taxes no matter what the final cost?
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 03:49 am
Wow, when did this become the tax cut thread?

(There's a perfectly good one going on across the way...)

Well, far be it from me to post off-topic, but guess who thinks the tax cut was a lousy idea? None other than Warren Buffet. Here, look:

Quote:
The annual Forbes 400 lists prove that -- with occasional blips -- the rich do indeed get richer. Nonetheless, the Senate voted last week to supply major aid to the rich in their pursuit of even greater wealth.

The Senate decided that the dividends an individual receives should be 50 percent free of tax in 2003, 100 percent tax-free in 2004 through 2006 and then again fully taxable in 2007. The mental flexibility the Senate demonstrated in crafting these zigzags is breathtaking. What it has put in motion, though, is clear: If enacted, these changes would further tilt the tax scales toward the rich.

Let me, as a member of that non-endangered species, give you an example of how the scales are currently balanced. The taxes I pay to the federal government, including the payroll tax that is paid for me by my employer, Berkshire Hathaway, are roughly the same proportion of my income -- about 30 percent -- as that paid by the receptionist in our office. My case is not atypical -- my earnings, like those of many rich people, are a mix of capital gains and ordinary income -- nor is it affected by tax shelters (I've never used any). As it works out, I pay a somewhat higher rate for my combination of salary, investment and capital gain income than our receptionist does. But she pays a far higher portion of her income in payroll taxes than I do.

She's not complaining: Both of us know we were lucky to be born in America. But I was luckier in that I came wired at birth with a talent for capital allocation -- a valuable ability to have had in this country during the past half-century. Credit America for most of this value, not me. If the receptionist and I had both been born in, say, Bangladesh, the story would have been far different. There, the market value of our respective talents would not have varied greatly.

Now the Senate says that dividends should be tax-free to recipients. Suppose this measure goes through and the directors of Berkshire Hathaway (which does not now pay a dividend) therefore decide to pay $1 billion in dividends next year. Owning 31 percent of Berkshire, I would receive $310 million in additional income, owe not another dime in federal tax, and see my tax rate plunge to 3 percent.

And our receptionist? She'd still be paying about 30 percent, which means she would be contributing about 10 times the proportion of her income that I would to such government pursuits as fighting terrorism, waging wars and supporting the elderly. Let me repeat the point: Her overall federal tax rate would be 10 times what my rate would be.

When I was young, President Kennedy asked Americans to "pay any price, bear any burden" for our country. Against that challenge, the 3 percent overall federal tax rate I would pay -- if a Berkshire dividend were to be tax-free -- seems a bit light.

Administration officials say that the $310 million suddenly added to my wallet would stimulate the economy because I would invest it and thereby create jobs. But they conveniently forget that if Berkshire kept the money, it would invest that same amount, creating jobs as well.

* * *

When you listen to tax-cut rhetoric, remember that giving one class of taxpayer a "break" requires -- now or down the line -- that an equivalent burden be imposed on other parties. In other words, if I get a break, someone else pays. Government can't deliver a free lunch to the country as a whole. It can, however, determine who pays for lunch. And last week the Senate handed the bill to the wrong party.

Supporters of making dividends tax-free like to paint critics as promoters of class warfare. The fact is, however, that their proposal promotes class welfare. For my class.


Dayumn, Mr. Buffet, that was strrrrong.

Dividend Voodoo
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 06:48 am
a
WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
By David Usborne

30 May 2003

The Bush administration focused on alleged weapons of mass destruction as the primary justification for toppling Saddam Hussein by force because it was politically convenient, a top-level official at the Pentagon has acknowledged.

The extraordinary admission comes in an interview with Paul Wolfowitz, the Deputy Defence Secretary, in the July issue of the magazine Vanity Fair.

Mr Wolfowitz also discloses that there was one justification that was "almost unnoticed but huge". That was the prospect of the United States being able to withdraw all of its forces from Saudi Arabia once the threat of Saddam had been removed. Since the taking of Baghdad, Washington has said that it is taking its troops out of the kingdom. "Just lifting that burden from the Saudis is itself going to the door" towards making progress elsewhere in achieving Middle East peace, Mr Wolfowitz said. The presence of the US military in Saudi Arabia has been one of the main grievances of al-Qa'ida and other terrorist groups.

"For bureaucratic reasons we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction, because it was the one reason everyone could agree on," Mr Wolfowitz tells the magazine.

The comments suggest that, even for the US administration, the logic that was presented for going to war may have been an empty shell. They come to light, moreover, just two days after Mr Wolfowitz's immediate boss, Donald Rumsfeld, the Defence Secretary, conceded for the first time that the arms might never be found.




The scoop
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 07:07 am
That we had many other significant reasons for the intervention in Iraq, going well beyond the WMD matter, and that the WMD issue was merely the only issue the Security Council was willing to address, can hardly be a surprise to any alert observer.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 07:18 am
a
Not the lie that's important here .... their methodology

Bush: we told a lie but what else could we do?

JQ Public: A lie! well yeah, what else could WE do?

Over done with forgotten.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 07:20 am
Quote:
Mr Wolfowitz also discloses that there was one justification that was "almost unnoticed but huge". That was the prospect of the United States being able to withdraw all of its forces from Saudi Arabia once the threat of Saddam had been removed. Since the taking of Baghdad, Washington has said that it is taking its troops out of the kingdom. "Just lifting that burden from the Saudis is itself going to the door" towards making progress elsewhere in achieving Middle East peace, Mr Wolfowitz said.

This is one I pointed to several months ago, and it is a compelling reason why we ought to consider administration claims that they don't want to stay in Iraq as deceitful. Of course, we now also have the admission that 'we'll keep a footprint there...indeterminate size, indeterminate lenght of time'. These arrogant jerks cannot be trusted to be honest and forthright. And, as I pointed out earlier, the US out of SA is EXACTLY what Osama desired.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 07:31 am
george

Your credulity is perfectly suited for good Germanness. It doesn't matter what deceits these guys get caught in, or what violation of principle, you'll just switch over to their new line and the new justification with the greatest of ease. Checks and balances, opposing opinions, reportage that reveals the deceits...all these things look suspect to you, perhaps even anti-American.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 07:43 am
Sorry Pdiddie. I hereby promise to foreswear any further references to tax policy on this thread. Just the US, the UN and Iraq, unless it might concern how we are going to pay for this adventure in pre-emption.

georgepb1: Please list for me and the others your top five other significant reasons for invading Iraq and list as well how these reasons are exclusive to Iraq either singularly or as a whole. In other words, how these other reasons pointed to Iraq as the primary target for America's concern and not some other country having perhaps the same characteristic.

Ladies and Gentlemen:
Here are georgeob1's, (your official A2K alert observer)
TOP FIVE OTHER SIGNIFICANT REASONS
FOR THE INTERVENTION IN IRAQ
and how they applied primarily to that country.

Here's George:
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 07:50 am
Hey, GelisgestiDude, thanks for the BOSS AlterNet article. Laughing

He writes like a politicized Elmore Leonard.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 07:50 am
Once again, Blatham, you've said quite tactfully what I would have jeered at open and rudely. Thus: We have developed a whole culture -- maybe a class -- of liars who almost don't recognize what they're doing. The lie is built into the way of life. It somewhat reminds me of Reagan's inability to tell the difference between what he'd experienced in the movies and in real life -- aw shucks, does it matter? I heard Bill O'Riley last night trying to throw out the BBC and Robert Scheer in one gesture -- unsuccessfully, of course. When you're in the right mood, these guys are funny.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 07:53 am
Tar, yeah, funny as a rubber crutch
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 07:55 am
Actually Blatham I'm the son of Irish immigrants: perhaps a little Viking in the gene pool, but no known Germans. I'm not sure that the "good Germanness" reference is fair,even to them.

There is nothing particularly new in the Wolfowitz interview. As you have just pointed out with respect to your own comments, most of this has already been noted by many commentators on this thread, and, more to the point, by the Administration itself. Please recall that the Administrations announced policy of bringing regime change to Iraq predated the rather legalistic WMD debate in the Security Council. It had everything to do with the then growing pressure to remove the sanctions and the added potential the new oil billions would give to Saddam; the need to change the balance of force and terror in the Middle East; the potential for a new model in a restive Arab world in the one nation most likely to thrive under a moderate, secular government (if one could be achieved); to lessen our dependence on a failing Saudi regime; and, yes, Saddam's potential as a purveyor and user of WMD and terror.

Please forgive me if I find all the current indignation a bit contrived.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 08:13 am
Icky poo.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 08:20 am
That indignation is not current, it is continuing. If anything here is contrived, it is the contention that the administration went into this war having fully disclosed their motivations to the public. Much of what is now confirmed by the under-assistant idiots in various branches of the executive was previously the subject of speculation by those opposed to the O.K. Corral gang. The people of this nation supported the prospect of this war based upon two, and only two, significant contentions of the adminstration--neither of which has been bourn out. These were the threat of weapons of mass destruction in the hands of the former Iraqi government, and the harboring of and the giving of aid and comfort to the Al-Quaeda terrorists. Furthermore, Bush only got the large support conservatives are fond of pointing to, in those surveys in which the public had the opportunity to say that they supported the prospect of war given the approval of the United Nations. Given the serious problems this adminstration has with candor and preverication, it does not surprise me that classic "doublethink" and "doublespeak" à la 1984 is the vogue among the neo-cons.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 08:24 am
Tartarin, yes, the media can bring a few ironic laughs. Like Ari Fleisher poo-pooing the FT article on the trillion-buck deficits that would be caused by the tax cut.

george, I do not agree with your calm take on how we were led down the garden path. (Well, some of us were. Many of us were not.) If you find the reasons you have given as justifying our attack on Iraq, there is surely nothing anyone here can say that would change your mind. I find it much more convincing to read -- if the story can be believed -- that there will be an investigation into the CIA's "intelligence" that supported Iraq's possession of nuclear and biological weapons. I almost fell off my perch when I read that. Is it possible that we are to learn the truth about something? Somehow, I have a feeling that we will never read the results of that investigation
.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 08:26 am
yeah....what the last two folks said...particularly 'icky poo'.
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mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 08:29 am
How lofty; how noble; how ideal. Why then did Bush and the current administration feel it so necessary to go into lengthy explanations to a people whose opinions they don't care about anyway? It wasn't just the regime change, there was a lot of talk in the beginning about fighting terrorism, then there was regime change, then there was removal of WMD. And all of this expained ever so carefully to the people and the UN, with protestations that the oil was not part of the discovery process. If the determination of the Bush crowd was so true and admirable, why the fight and the lies to get approval?

The skeptics among us believe - no, know - that the major reason for the Iraqi business was to get control of the oil, and through that control of the region, from which they could become the super power in the mid-east, and it was long ago determined that Iraq was the key, that it would be the easiest to attack. Wolfowitz, Perle, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Libby, others have been maintaining this for years.

It is nice to know, georgeob, that your faith in the goodness of their motives is there, but the actions of the Bush cabal have not justified that faith. Afer this wonderful win against a fifth rate army, the bids for reconstruction were not even opened to our ally - Great Britain - but were given to the usual, Halliburton and its subsidiaries. Thus keeping it all in the family.

And since we have yet to have proof of all the propaganda put about, but are able to see with our own eyes the feelings of the liberated Iraqis and the shenanigans of some of our operations there, purity of motive is highly questionable.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 08:32 am
Weasels will always be weasels. Me thinks the revolution gets closer and closer.

What a Fascist Regime this is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 08:53 am
mamajuana wrote in part:

Quote:
The skeptics among us believe - no, know - that the major reason for the Iraqi business was to get control of the oil, and through that control of the region, from which they could become the super power in the mid-east, and it was long ago determined that Iraq was the key, that it would be the easiest to attack. Wolfowitz, Perle, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Libby, others have been maintaining this for years.


I heard an interesting take on this today on C-Span by a US writer who has written for the BBC and has now come back to America to do an investigation of the Bush administration for the BBC.

He pointed out that the new troop movements and deployments that reflect the admininstration's attempt at "military flexibility," or whatever their current reason is, show that they have a keen interest in protecting oil resources. Why otherwise would they plan to deploy an armed force in Nigeria if not to secure a hold on Nigerian oil that provides less than 20% of our current oil imports but will provide up to 25% in the future.

And would anyone, EVER, believe any story out of this administration again after the Jessica Lynch fairy-tale?
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