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The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 03:35 am
0 Replies
 
frolic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 03:35 am
"the astounding success of this war in military terms"

I prefer "the logical outcome of this war"

Iraq had an amry with conscripts and equipment from the 70's. They had no airpower and were bombed on a weekly basis for the last ten years.

Any large number of casualties on the US/UK side would have been a disgrace for the military.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 03:37 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Just a thought: Who decides how many deaths are worth the liberation of a country from it's tyranical leader? c.i.


We all do, c.i., each of us alone, when forming our opinion and deciding on whether to demonstrate or not and who to vote for at the next elections (if are lucky enough to have the chance to do either).

We're not sure just how many deaths were involved in this war. The Iraqbodycount.org counter has the number of civilian victims at between 1,600 and 1,900. I read a report in the paper yesterday that estimated the # of deaths among the Iraqi military at several thousands - three to five thousand I believe. Added to the several hundred casualties at the US/UK side that would make a total of somewhere up to 7,500 thus far. That's quite a lot of deaths in three weeks of war, but astoundingly little for the conquest of an entire country (regardless of whether the latter was for better or for worse).

What do you think: is the liberation of a country from it's tyranical leader, per se (as in, regardless of what form of not-a-tyrannical-dictatorship follows it), worth 7,500 deaths?

I veer towards yes on that specific count ... If the war can be argued not to have been worth it, which I think it might be, it would have to be, in my opinion, on other counts.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 03:41 am
Did I hear someone say 'fill er up Iraq ... and make it high test'


Bush urges end to UN sanctions on Iraq
Washington: "Now that Iraq is liberated, the United Nations should lift sanctions on that country," Bush said in a speech in St. Louis, Missouri. The restrictive sanctions were imposed after the once-wealthy oil-producing country's 1990 invasion of Kuwait.



The White House said the United States would propose a UN resolution to end the sanctions "in the near future" and Washington's UN ambassador John Negroponte said Washington envisioned a "step-by-step procedure."



Gen. Tommy Franks, who directed the war in Iraq, flew in to Baghdad airport, its runways still pockmarked with craters from US bombs, met with troops and military commanders and gave Bush a progress report via videoconference from one of Saddam's abandoned palaces.



"I wanted to get our commanders together in Baghdad because that's been, of course, the center of gravity for this regime while it stood. And as we all recognize it stands no longer," Franks told reporters.



Although relatively calm, there were incidents of violence and looting in Baghdad and a desperate shortage of electricity, water and medical care in the heavily bombed capital.



Franks said water and power were being restored and hospitals were going back to work after days of anarchy. "I actually believe it will be better seven days from now, quite a bit than it is today," he said.
0 Replies
 
frolic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 03:52 am
Robert Fisk
For the people on the streets, this is not liberation but a new colonial oppression

Quote:
America's war of 'liberation' may be over. But Iraq's war of liberation from the Americans is just about to begin
17 April 2003

It's going wrong, faster than anyone could have imagined. The army of "liberation" has already turned into the army of occupation. The Shias are threatening to fight the Americans, to create their own war of "liberation".

At night on every one of the Shia Muslim barricades in Sadr City, there are 14 men with automatic rifles. Even the US Marines in Baghdad are talking of the insults being flung at them. "Go away! Get out of my face!" an American soldier screamed at an Iraqi trying to push towards the wire surrounding an infantry unit in the capital yesterday. I watched the man's face suffuse with rage. "God is Great! God is Great!" the Iraqi retorted.

"**** you!"
The Americans have now issued a "Message to the Citizens of Baghdad", a document as colonial in spirit as it is insensitive in tone. "Please avoid leaving your homes during the night hours after evening prayers and before the call to morning prayers," it tells the people of the city. "During this time, terrorist forces associated with the former regime of Saddam Hussein, as well as various criminal elements, are known to move through the area ... please do not leave your homes during this time. During all hours, please approach Coalition military positions with extreme caution ..."

So now - with neither electricity nor running water - the millions of Iraqis here are ordered to stay in their homes from dusk to dawn. Lockdown. It's a form of imprisonment. In their own country. Written by the command of the 1st US Marine Division, it's a curfew in all but name.

"If I was an Iraqi and I read that," an Arab woman shouted at me, "I would become a suicide bomber." And all across Baghdad you hear the same thing, from Shia Muslim clerics to Sunni businessmen, that the Americans have come only for oil, and that soon - very soon - a guerrilla resistance must start. No doubt the Americans will claim that these attacks are "remnants" of Saddam's regime or "criminal elements". But that will not be the case.

Marine officers in Baghdad were holding talks yesterday with a Shia militant cleric from Najaf to avert an outbreak of fighting around the holy city. I met the prelate before the negotiations began and he told me that "history is being repeated". He was talking of the British invasion of Iraq in 1917, which ended in disaster for the British.

Everywhere are the signs of collapse. And everywhere the signs that America's promises of "freedom" and "democracy" are not to be honoured.

Why, Iraqis are asking, did the United States allow the entire Iraqi cabinet to escape? And they're right. Not just the Beast of Baghdad and his two sons, Qusay and Uday, but the Vice-President, Taha Yassin Ramadan, the Deputy Prime Minister, Tariq Aziz, Saddam's personal adviser, Dr A K Hashimi, the ministers of defence, health, the economy, trade, even Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, the Minister of Information who, long ago, in the days before journalists cosied up to him, was the official who read out the list of executed "brothers" in the purge that followed Saddam's revolution - relatives of prisoners would dose themselves on valium before each Sahaf appearance.

Here's what Baghdadis are noticing - and what Iraqis are noticing in all the main cities of the country. Take the vast security apparatus with which Saddam surrounded himself, the torture chambers and the huge bureaucracy that was its foundation. President Bush promised that America was campaigning for human rights in Iraq, that the guilty, the war criminals, would be brought to trial. The 60 secret police headquarters in Baghdad are empty, even the three-square-mile compound headquarters of the Iraqi Intelligence Service.

I have been to many of them. But there is no evidence even that a single British or US forensic officer has visited the sites to sift the wealth of documents lying there or talk to the ex-prisoners returning to their former places of torment. Is this idleness. Or is this wilful?

Take the Qasimiyeh security station beside the river Tigris. It's a pleasant villa - once owned by an Iranian-born Iraqi who was deported to Iran in the 1980s. There's a little lawn and a shrubbery and at first you don't notice the three big hooks in the ceiling of each room or the fact that big sheets of red paper, decorated with footballers, have been pasted over the windows to conceal the rooms from outsiders. But across the floors, in the garden, on the roof, are the files of this place of suffering. They show, for example, that the head of the torture centre was Hashem al-Tikrit, that his deputy was called Rashid al-Nababy.

Mohammed Aish Jassem, an ex-prisoner, showed me how he was suspended from the ceiling by Captain Amar al-Isawi, who believed Jassem was a member of the religious Dawa party. "They put my hands behind my back like this and tied them and then pulled me into the air by my tied wrists," he told me. "They used a little generator to lift me up, right up to the ceiling, then they'd release the rope in the hope of breaking my shoulder when I fell."

The hooks in the ceiling are just in front of Captain Isawi's desk. I understood what this meant. There wasn't a separate torture chamber and office for documentation. The torture chamber was the office. While the man or woman shrieked in agony above him, Captain Isawi would sign papers, take telephone calls and - given the contents of his bin - smoke many cigarettes while he waited for the information he sought from his prisoners.

Were they monsters, these men? Yes. Are they sought by the Americans? No. Are they now working for the Americans? Yes, quite possibly - indeed some of them may well be in the long line of ex-security thugs who queue every morning outside the Palestine Hotel in the hope of being re-hired by the US Marines' Civil Affairs Unit.

The names of the guards at the Qasimiyeh torture centre in Baghdad are in papers lying on the floor. They were Ahmed Hassan Alawi, Akil Shaheed, Noaman Abbas and Moham-med Fayad. But the Americans haven't bothered to find this out. So Messrs Alawi, Shaheed, Abbas and Fayad are welcome to apply to work for them.

There are prisoner identification papers on the desks and in the cupboards. What happened to Wahid Mohamed, Majid Taha, Saddam Ali or Lazim Hmoud?A lady in a black chador approached the old torture centre. Four of her brothers had been taken there and, later, when she went to ask what happened, she was told all four had been executed. She was ordered to leave. She never saw or buried their bodies. Ex-prisoners told me that there is a mass grave in the Khedeer desert, but no one - least of all Baghdad's new occupiers - are interested in finding it.

And the men who suffered under Saddam? What did they have to say? "We committed no sin," one of them said to me, a 40-year-old whose prison duties had included the cleaning of the hangman's trap of blood and faeces after each execution. "We are not guilty of anything. Why did they do this to us?

"America, yes, it got rid of Saddam. But Iraq belongs to us. Our oil belongs to us. We will keep our nationality. It will stay Iraq. The Americans must go."

If the Americans and the British want to understand the nature of the religious opposition here, they have only to consult the files of Saddam's secret service archives. I found one, Report No 7481, dated 24 February this year on the conflict between Sheikh Mohammed al-Yacoubi and Mukhtada Sadr, the 22-year-old grandson of Mohammed Sadr, who was executed on Saddam's orders more than two decades ago.

The dispute showed the passion and the determination with which the Shia religious leaders fight even each other. But of course, no one has bothered to read this material or even look for it.

At the end of the Second World War, German-speaking British and US intelligence officers hoovered up every document in the thousands of Gestapo and Abwehr bureaux across western Germany. The Russians did the same in their zone. In Iraq, however, the British and Americans have simply ignored the evidence.

There's an even more terrible place for the Americans to visit in Baghdad - the headquarters of the whole intelligence apparatus, a massive grey-painted block that was bombed by the US and a series of villas and office buildings that are stashed with files, papers and card indexes. It was here that Saddam's special political prisoners were brought for vicious interrogation - electricity being an essential part of this - and it was here that Farzad Bazoft, the Observer correspondent, was brought for questioning before his dispatch to the hangman.

It's also graced with delicately shaded laneways, a creche - for the families of the torturers - and a school in which one pupil had written an essay in English on (suitably perhaps) Beckett's Waiting for Godot. There's also a miniature hospital and a road named "Freedom Street" and flowerbeds and bougainvillea. It's the creepiest place in all of Iraq.

I met - extraordinarily - an Iraqi nuclear scientist walking around the compound, a colleague of the former head of Iraqi nuclear physics, Dr Sharistani. "This is the last place I ever wanted to see and I will never return to it," he said to me. "This was the place of greatest evil in all the world."

The top security men in Saddam's regime were busy in the last hours, shredding millions of documents. I found a great pile of black plastic rubbish bags at the back of one villa, each stuffed with the shreds of thousands of papers. Shouldn't they be taken to Washington or London and reconstituted to learn their secrets?

Even the unshredded files contain a wealth of information. But again, the Americans have not bothered - or do not want - to search through these papers. If they did, they would find the names of dozens of senior intelligence men, many of them identified in congratulatory letters they insisted on sending each other every time they were promoted. Where now, for example, is Colonel Abdulaziz Saadi, Captain Abdulsalam Salawi, Captain Saad Ahmed al-Ayash, Colonel Saad Mohammed, Captain Majid Ahmed and scores of others? We may never know. Or perhaps we are not supposed to know.

Iraqis are right to ask why the Americans don't search for this information, just as they are right to demand to know why the entire Saddam cabinet - every man jack of them - got away. The capture by the Americans of Saddam's half-brother and the ageing Palestinian gunman Abu Abbas, whose last violent act was 18 years ago, is pathetic compensation for this.

Now here's another question the Iraqis are asking - and to which I cannot provide an answer. On 8 April, three weeks into the invasion, the Americans dropped four 2,000lb bombs on the Baghdad residential area of Mansur. They claimed they thought Saddam was hiding there. They knew they would kill civilians because it was not, as one Centcom mandarin said, a "risk free venture". So they dropped their bombs and killed 14 civilians in Mansur, most of them members of a Christian family.

The Americans said they couldn't be sure they had killed Saddam until they could carry out forensic tests at the site. But this turns out to have been a lie. I went there two days ago. Not a single US or British official had bothered to visit the bomb craters. Indeed, when I arrived, there was a putrefying smell and families pulled the remains of a baby from the rubble.

No American officers have apologised for this appalling killing. And I can promise them that the baby I saw being placed under a sheet of black plastic was very definitely not Saddam Hussein. Had they bothered to look at this place - as they claimed they would - they would at least have found the baby. Now the craters are a place of pilgrimage for the people of Baghdad.

Then there's the fires that have consumed every one of the city's ministries - save, of course, for the Ministry of Interior and the Ministry of Oil - as well as UN offices, embassies and shopping malls. I have counted a total of 35 ministries now gutted by fire and the number goes on rising.

Yesterday I found myself at the Ministry of Oil, assiduously guarded by US troops, some of whom were holding clothes over their mouths because of the clouds of smoke swirling down on them from the neighbouring Ministry of Agricultural Irrigation. Hard to believe, isn't it, that they were unaware that someone was setting fire to the next building?

Then I spotted another fire, three kilometres away. I drove to the scene to find flames curling out of all the windows of the Ministry of Higher Education's Department of Computer Science. And right next to it, perched on a wall, was a US Marine, who said he was guarding a neighbouring hospital and didn't know who had lit the next door fire because "you can't look everywhere at once".

Now I'm sure the marine was not being facetious or dishonest - should the Americans not believe this story, he was Corporal Ted Nyholm of the 3rd Regiment, 4th Marines and, yes, I called his fiancée, Jessica, in the States for him to pass on his love - but something is terribly wrong when US soldiers are ordered simply to watch vast ministries being burnt by mobs and do nothing about it.

Because there is also something dangerous - and deeply disturbing - about the crowds setting light to the buildings of Baghdad, including the great libraries and state archives. For they are not looters. The looters come first. The arsonists turn up later, often in blue-and-white buses. I followed one after its passengers had set the Ministry of Trade on fire and it sped out of town.

The official US line on all this is that the looting is revenge - an explanation that is growing very thin - and that the fires are started by "remnants of Saddam's regime", the same "criminal elements", no doubt, who feature in the marines' curfew orders. But people in Baghdad don't believe Saddam's former supporters are starting these fires. And neither do I.

The looters make money from their rampages but the arsonists have to be paid. The passengers in those buses are clearly being directed to their targets. If Saddam had pre-paid them, they wouldn't start the fires. The moment he disappeared, they would have pocketed the money and forgotten the whole project.

So who are they, this army of arsonists? I recognised one the other day, a middle-aged, unshaven man in a red T-shirt, and the second time he saw me he pointed a Kalashnikov at me. What was he frightened of? Who was he working for? In whose interest is it to destroy the entire physical infrastructure of the state, with its cultural heritage? Why didn't the Americans stop this?

As I said, something is going terribly wrong in Baghdad and something is going on which demands that serious questions be asked of the United States government. Why, for example, did Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defence, claim last week that there was no widespread looting or destruction in Baghdad? His statement was a lie. But why did he make it?

The Americans say they don't have enough troops to control the fires. This is also untrue. If they don't, what are the hundreds of soldiers deployed in the gardens of the old Iran-Iraq war memorial doing all day? Or the hundreds camped in the rose gardens of the President Palace?

So the people of Baghdad are asking who is behind the destruction of their cultural heritage: the looting of the archaeological treasures from the national museum; the burning of the entire Ottoman, Royal and State archives; the Koranic library; and the vast infrastructure of the nation we claim we are going to create for them.

Why, they ask, do they still have no electricity and no water? In whose interest is it for Iraq to be deconstructed, divided, burnt, de-historied, destroyed? Why are they issued with orders for a curfew by their so-called liberators?

And it's not just the people of Baghdad, but the Shias of the city of Najaf and of Nasiriyah - where 20,000 protested at America's first attempt to put together a puppet government on Wednesday - who are asking these questions. Now there is looting in Mosul where thousands reportedly set fire to the pro-American governor's car after he promised US help in restoring electricity.

It's easy for a reporter to predict doom, especially after a brutal war that lacked all international legitimacy. But catastrophe usually waits for optimists in the Middle East, especially for false optimists who invade oil-rich nations with ideological excuses and high-flown moral claims and accusations, such as weapons of mass destruction, which are still unproved. So I'll make an awful prediction. That America's war of "liberation" is over. Iraq's war of liberation from the Americans is about to begin. In other words, the real and frightening story starts now.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 03:54 am
Jewish World Review April 14, 2003 /12 Nissan, 5763

Zev Chafets



I'm still waiting on the large lady ..... or at least the firat WMD

Don't believe the cheers


http://www.jewishworldreview.com | Saddam Hussein's metal skull hadn't yet hit the dirt in Baghdad's Firdos Square when American commentators began sounding like Sally Field: The Iraqis love us, they really, really love us.

"We've liberated them, and that makes me feel good," a young Marine told reporters.

The enthusiasm with which U.S. troops are being greeted in the Kurdish north is real. But in the rest of the country, especially in the capital, it is a potentially dangerous mirage.

Greeting enemy conquerors with cheers is an old Arab custom. The Lebanese villagers who welcomed invading Israeli troops with rice and roses in June 1982 were heaving grenades at them by the end of the year.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 04:02 am
Thanks for the article, frolic. Can I make a practical suggestion, though? If quotes from articles are pasted in a post as "quote" (see the buttons that you also use to make fonts bold and coloured, etc), they take less space here and are also more clearly recognizable as outside sources rather than personal posts. I, for one, find it extremely helpful if people do that.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 04:07 am
nimh

Quote:
This as just one more random example of how the Generalized Kind of Overall Line on How Things are Now Going, that emanates from some posts here, seems to suggest a whole lot more expertise on the sketched World Developments than can be upheld upon checking with the facts - and might just express a fair amount of Wishful Thinking.


Laughing
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 04:11 am
Front page news:
U.S.: Mobile labs found in Iraq

News on the 7th page of the newspaper or briefly mentioned on TV:
Tests rule out suspect bio-labs
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 04:18 am
pnac
Whose war is this?


Of the 18 people who signed the letter, 10 are now in the Bush administration. As well as Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, they include Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage; John Bolton, who is undersecretary of state for disarmament; and Zalmay Khalilzad, the White House liaison to the Iraqi opposition. Other signatories include William Kristol, editor of the conservative Weekly Standard magazine, and Richard Perle, chairman of the advisory Defense Science Board.



Kristol dismisses the allegations of conspiracy, but said the group redoubled its efforts after 9/11 to get its message out. "We made it very public that we thought that one consequence the president should draw from 9/11 is that it was unacceptable to sit back and let either terrorist groups or dictators developing weapons of mass destruction strike first, at us," he said.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 04:23 am
timberlandko wrote:
In some neighborhoods of Baghdad and in much of Southern Iraq, there is now more access to potable water than ever there was under Saddam. Over 1/2 the Iraqi population subsisted on government handouts under Saddam, and much of that demographic now has available more calories-and-nutrients-per-person, and superior medical care, to that which was afforded them by Saddam.


I am still marvelling at these astounding suggested statements of fact. Instead of acting on my urge to whisper, "Muhammed al-Sahaf", perhaps I may ask for some links or data on this?

Considering the mass damage a quick but hefty war must have caused to, say, roads and trainrails alone, I can't imagine the regular peasant-market economy has somehow been able to produce more and better food than it did in the past years within a single week of the end of the war - while fighting is still incidentally taking place, in fact ... So you must be referring to humanitarian aid ... now I'll believe that the US humanitarian handouts are probably more nutritious than the Saddam-distributed ones were, but, feeding over half the Iraqi population - and better so than Saddam did at that, already, now? Wow. Wasn't there a problem with getting the humanitarian aid in place country-wide still?

And superior medical care, too? Just a week or two after doctors in Basra and Baghdad were complaining that at least before the war, there was electricity, there was water, there were still aneasthetics; just a week after the reports from overflowing Baghdad hospitals unable to cope with a stream of seriously injured said to be bigger than the previous Gulf War had ever caused, now already "much of the demographic [of over half the Iraqi population]" enjoys "superior medical care" than under Saddam? And all that achieved by "combat troops [who] aren't cops" and of whom it would be "ludicrous to expect Civil Security Action" of the protect-one-of-the-world's-biggest-cultural-treasure-groves kind? Wow. Simply unbelievable.

Literally.

Though I would actually agree with you that, existentially, "The Average Iraqi" is "better off now than a month ago" (and will certainly be once the daily grind of material life actually does reach the level of copability it had before the war, at least), I think you'd really do well to tone down the measure of suggested statements of fact that cannot in fact possibly be backed up by data. You can be timberlandko, the measured moderator and expert on military affairs, or, well, veer off into www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com territory ... Brilliant site, by the way. Hilarious - thank you very much for the link again.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 04:40 am
Looters
Contract with Iraq

by ALEXANDER COCKBURN

They put US troops round the Oil Ministry and the headquarters of the Secret Police, but stood aside as the mobs looted Baghdad's Archaeological Museum and torched the National Library. It sounds like something right out of Newt Gingrich's Contract with America, only here the troops protecting the American Petroleum Institute are lobbyists and politicians, lobbing tax breaks over the wall.

As regards culture, Newt & Co, you'll recall, reached for their guns whenever the word came up. What libraries here that have survived in any useful condition here have FBI snoops asking to see what the brown furriners have been reading. No need to worry about the locals. By the time the attack here on public education is over, the sort of people who once used public libraries to make their way up in the world won't be able to read.

US troops also sat back and allowed mobs to wreck and then burn the Ministry of Planning, the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Irrigation, the Ministry of Trade, the Ministry of Industry, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Ministry of Culture and the Ministry of Information. Meanwhile these same troops lost no time in protecting such important assets as the North Oil Company, the state-owned firm running Iraq's northern oil fields. Colonel William Mayville, told the embedded press that he wanted to send the message, "Hey, don't screw with the oil."

There's nothing out of place about the complacency with which Rumsfeld and the others have regarded the looting of Baghdad, extolling it as somehow the forgivable portent of freedom. "It's untidy," the endlessly loquacious Rumsfeld confided. "And freedom's untidy. And free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes."

Freedom to loot, the conversion of public assets into private property, is a core "free-enterprise" tenet, raised to the level of religious belief in recent years, in contrast to the more preferable posture of the Robber Barons of yesteryear who viewed themselves more realistically as fellows smart enough to figure out the combo to the safe.

We've just come through a decade of spectacular looting of the sort that made Bush and Cheney millionaires. In the late Nineties the executive suites of America's largest companies became a vast hog wallow. CEOs and finance officers would borrow millions from some cooperative bank, using the money to drive up company stock prices, thereby inflating the value of their options. $1.22 trillion was the total of borrowing by non-financial corporations between 1994 and 1999, inclusive. Of that sum, corporations used just 15.3 per cent for capital expenditures. They used 57 per cent of it, $697.4 billion, to buy back stock and thus enrich themselves, which was surely the wildest smash and grab in the history of corporate thievery.

Any of this relevant to what's going on in Iraq? Most certainly, and we don't mean merely that Ahmad Chalabi, head of the Iraqi National Congress will be unable, if he installed in Iraq as the US's local puppet, to visit nearby Jordan where the fragrance of financial impropriety lingers , concerning a $200m (£127m) banking scandal in Jordan recently detailed in The London Guardian by David Leigh and Brian Whitaker. In 1992, Chalabi was tried in his absence and sentenced by a Jordanian court to 22 years' jail on 31 charges of embezzlement, theft, misuse of depositor funds and currency speculation.

Capitalism, as Joseph Schumpeter hopefully pointed out, is premised on destruction. Lay waste the old, roll out the new. The missionaries of the free market and of Christianity hastening into Baghdad are intent on reinventing the place along capitalist lines under the overall spiritual guidance of the Judeo-Christian tradition. That means tolerating, nay, encouraging mobs to wipe out the past, whether in the form of ancient Islamic manuscripts or public institutions.

Sweden's largest newspaper, Dagens Nyheter, published an interview April 11 with a Swedish researcher of Middle Eastern ancestry who had gone to Iraq to serve as a human shield. Khaled Bayoumi told the newspaper, "I happened to be right there just as the American troops encouraged people to begin the plundering." He described how US soldiers shot security guards at a local government building on Haifa Avenue on the west bank of the Tigris, and then "blasted apart the doors to the building." Next, according to Bayoumi, "from the tanks came eager calls in Arabic encouraging people to come close to them."

At first, he said, residents were hesitant to come out of their homes because anyone who had tried to cross the street in the morning had been shot. "Arab interpreters in the tanks told the people to go and take what they wanted in the building," Bayoumi continued. "The word spread quickly and the building was ransacked. I was standing only 300 yards from there when the guards were murdered. Afterwards the tank crushed the entrance to the Justice Department, which was in a neighboring building, and the plundering continued there. "I stood in a large crowd and watched this together with them. They did not partake in the plundering but dared not to interfere. Many had tears of shame in their eyes. The next morning the plundering spread to the Modern Museum, which lies a quarter mile farther north. There were also two crowds there, one that plundered and one that watched with disgust."

Anyone who saw how "free enterprise" was nurtured in the former Soviet Union will be able to presage Iraq's future. The brunt of the UN sanctions imposed after 1991 was always born by the poor, even as Saddam's plumbers installed gold taps in his bathrooms. These poor, after their brief taste of the freedom to loot (honored by Ari Fleischer, who probably had different views of the looting in Los Angeles after the Rodney King verdict a few years ago), will relapse into abject poverty. Gangster entrepreneurs will take over, under western approval and with fervent editorials in the Wall Street Journal about the New Iraq, whose prospects are about as rosy as when Ulagu the Mongol laid the place waste in 1248
Quote:
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 04:49 am
nimh, another good riposte, thanks

frolic, I presume that was Fisk writing in today's Independent?

It amazes me that Fisk has not been terminated before now. It would be so easy.

Reading between the lines of his article, it seems pretty clear to me that some deal must have been done over the fate of Saddam and his immediate entourage.

Something like "We are going to take over your country either the hard way or the easy way. Its your choice. Make the wrong one and you're dead".
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 04:56 am
frolic wrote:
Robert Fisk
Quote:
But there is no evidence even that a single British or US forensic officer has visited the sites to sift the wealth of documents lying there or talk to the ex-prisoners returning to their former places of torment. Is this idleness. Or is this wilful? [..]

"America, yes, it got rid of Saddam. But Iraq belongs to us. Our oil belongs to us. We will keep our nationality. It will stay Iraq. The Americans must go."


That is a very moving as well as very interesting article, and an example of just how valuable the contribution of war reporters can be - pointing the (temporary) administrators to things going wrong, things glaringly overlooked, opportunities missed or botched up. Instead of reacting defensively, CenC should welcome such reports as they represent valuable intelligence - if we overlook the suggestion of deliberate obstruction for the moment.

One thing there bothers me, though, which is about the consistencies of arguments (y'all probably know by now how allergic I am to those). What I see the opponents of the US army say right now - Fisk the first among them - is, a) the Americans are doing a lousy job, neglecting or refusing to do a whole lot of things they should be working on right now in Iraq; b) they should get out of there as fast as possible, that's what the Iraqis want, they're not wanted there. I'd say, it's either one or the other, right? Either you plead for the US to properly take on the adminitration of the region for an interim period and insist on the additional tasks that involves; or you resent their very presence and think any longer stay stinks of imperialism and should be resisted. Can't have it both ways.

I am very surprised about the secret police stories - I mean, about how their buildings, materials, are neglected. During the 89 revolutions in East Germany, one of the first buildings occupied by demonstrators was that of the Stasi - people from the civic movements taking control so that former agents wouldnt get the chance to destroy incriminating evidence. The secret police is essential to a totalitarian state, and has affected every family. Now this in Iraq. Fisk points the finger at the Americans, perplexed about their disinterest in all this vital information about the who's who of Baa'thist Iraq, when they are to reconstruct government and administration next. But nobody does anything about it, apparently. Who would stop anyone, any Iraqi individual, any impromptu neighbourhood committee, from gathering all these papers and storing them into a crate? So many Iraqis need this information, about their lost family members etc. Is there nobody who cares? It implies something about the degree of absolute lack of any self-organisation of the Baghdadis, that is troubling re: chances of a post-war democratic order ...
0 Replies
 
frolic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 05:05 am
nimh wrote:
One thing there bothers me, though, which is about the consistencies of arguments (y'all probably know by now how allergic I am to those). What I see the opponents of the US army say right now - Fisk the first among them - is,

a) the Americans are doing a lousy job, neglecting or refusing to do a whole lot of things they should be working on right now in Iraq;

b) they should get out of there as fast as possible, that's what the Iraqis want, they're not wanted there. I'd say, it's either one or the other, right?

Either you plead for the US to properly take on the adminitration of the
region for an interim period and insist on the additional tasks that involves; or you resent their very presence and think any longer stay stinks of imperialism and should be resisted. Can't have it both ways.


IMO b is the result of a. If the Americans really came as liberators and restored the water, electricity and foodsupplies (the first thing to do) they would have been received as liberators.

Instead they shut of pipelines to Syria and dig up containers(thing that can wait) If that's the way they want to liberate Iraq they better leave. The sooner the better.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 05:36 am
perception wrote:
The other side of the coin in journalistic integrity


thanks perception, interesting article. Where is it from? I think there's some fair pieces of criticism there. The Greek analogy is a bit out there, and as for:

Quote:
I had been expecting at least some interviews about bridges not blown due to the rapidity of the advance. Could someone tell us how special forces saved the oil fields? How the Navy Seals prevented the dreaded oil slicks? Whose courage and sacrifice saved the dams? And how so few missiles were launched?


I've seen quite enough of that, for days the news was dominated by the highlights of military success. Only the issue of the missiles was a bit understated, perhaps because covering it would have implied admitting Iraq might well not have had the kind of weapons we started this war over. The media can hardly be said to have had a bias against the ever-quoted and -believed CenC. The permanent bias they do have is one in favour of the "now", and that's where the article's criticism of the lack of historical awareness does come in. For example on the looting - though all the criticism of the tolerance, even encouragement of the looting is correct, it's fair enough to point out the comparison with historical precedents, even just with WW2's Soviet zone, where the victorious armies would have been massively looting themselves.

The crux of the matter this article does justifiably highlight is I think in where I wrote "days". There's so much of hype about the breathless media coverage in this time of 24/7 live broadcasting. Today, when a division is defeated, is a day of rah-rah-rah cheers at the saving of the world; tomorrow, when an ambush is laid, is a day of stern warnings of Vietnam returning. It's true, the acute focus on the immediate event underemphasises the larger picture of the underlying development. It is a bit like

Quote:
It would be as if America forgot about Patton's race to the German border, and instead focused only on Frenchmen shaving the heads of Vichy collaborators, or decided that it had not been worth freeing the Italian peninsula because a mob had mutilated and hung Mussolini from his heels.


The fact that it is, is of course also largely due to people not seeing this war as a war of liberation, and thus not seeing anything particularly glorious in the victorious military endeavour that would serve to excuse things going wrong now afterwards. But it's also got to do with society's loss of patience. After WW2, there were months of chaos. Now, indeed,

Quote:
there must be furor that the United States had not in a matter of hours turned its military into an instantaneous police, fire, water, medical, and power corps.


People have become spoiled, in a way, when it comes to wars - they expect more. Just like anything over, say, 5,000 casualties on the own side nowadays is considered unacceptable. I do think that's a good thing, too - these upped expectations have in turn triggered the innovation of weapons and war strategies that involve less casualties, for example. There's also a risk - it suggests people think wars do not necessarily involve the amounts of blood, gore, chaos, looting and anarchy that traditionally come naturally with them anymore - and when they really start believing in these possible new, clean wars, they might hesitate ever less to start one, too.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 05:45 am
frolic wrote:
IMO b is the result of a. If the Americans really came as liberators and restored the water, electricity and foodsupplies (the first thing to do) they would have been received as liberators.

Instead they shut of pipelines to Syria and dig up containers(thing that can wait) If that's the way they want to liberate Iraq they better leave. The sooner the better.


OK, fair enough. But then I need to ask a question about honesty. B/c I was specifically asking about the use of these two seemingly inconsistent arguments by those who have opposed the US in this - people like Fisk, or you, for example.

If the Americans had immediately upon their military victory somehow succeeded to "restore the water, electricity and foodsupplies" - would it have made any difference to you? Would you have insisted any less that "they better leave. The sooner the better"?
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 06:09 am
"Honesty" is a good idea - and while on that subject would it be possible to have a source for number of 5,000 "acceptable" (?!) casualties and whether it includes dead and wounded, since definition of "casualty" varies, and, further, whether delayed effects are allowed. The number seems pulled out of thin air, >>

"Just like anything over, say, 5,000 casualties on the own side nowadays is considered unacceptable. "

>> unless it's somehow generated by the same sources cited in a monumental Dutch effort which led to the resignation of Holland's government over a year ago:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/yugo/article/0,2763,688327,00.html

P.S. to Kara - thanks for your concern, but please don't mind Timber calling me "girl"; it's quite all right - just high spirits! He means well <G>
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 06:25 am
I agree with you nimh that it is illogical to criticise the Americans for apparantly allowing the infrastructure of the country to be degraded and then criticise them further when order returns and rebuilding starts as evidence of colonialism.

Iraq has always been an artifical construct. It could only ever be held together by a strong man at the centre, like Tito in Yugoslavia. Perhaps its time to bring back Saddam, he knew how to deal with looters.

Meanwhile of course the Americans don't actually give a damn about Iraq as a country. I believe them when they say they want Iraq to be run by Iraqis - so long as they retain ultimate control over the bits of the country they are interested in. For my money what this will amount to in practice is secure American enclaves around the oil fields and their associated towns with the rest of the country 'free' to indulge in whatever form of anarchy or civil war the Iraqi people choose.
0 Replies
 
frolic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2003 06:59 am
nimh wrote:
frolic wrote:
IMO b is the result of a. If the Americans really came as liberators and restored the water, electricity and foodsupplies (the first thing to do) they would have been received as liberators.

Instead they shut of pipelines to Syria and dig up containers(thing that can wait) If that's the way they want to liberate Iraq they better leave. The sooner the better.


OK, fair enough. But then I need to ask a question about honesty. B/c I was specifically asking about the use of these two seemingly inconsistent arguments by those who have opposed the US in this - people like Fisk, or you, for example.

If the Americans had immediately upon their military victory somehow succeeded to "restore the water, electricity and foodsupplies" - would it have made any difference to you? Would you have insisted any less that "they better leave. The sooner the better"?


Nimh, there is something in between the US army controlling Iraq and abandon Iraq. And that something is called the UN. Just like in Afghanistan and other nations were democracy has to be (re)installed the UN can play a vital role. The US in an invading army with no legal ground for this invasion. The best thing to do is get the US soldiers asap out and the UN force asap in. Of course this is whishfull thinking because the predator(US) wont release its prey.
0 Replies
 
 

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