The US, UN & Iraq III

You blow me away man .... roflao
Very Happy

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What is the best description of the Clinton Presidency?

Answer
Sex between the Bush's

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Sofia -- Braggarts are not liked and admired. That's what America is being right now, a bully and a braggart. Just as with people, we like and admire countries which do the best they can, quietly celebrate their achievements when celebration is due, and turn over the task of praising to others. We constantly praise ourselves! What kind of people do that! The result is, of course, both Americans and non-Americans who find this odious and say so.

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This writer is a lover of America who is very, very sad at the events of the last year.
America is much diminished in the eyes of the world and it will take more than a generation to get over this.
I am deeply ashamed and concerned that my government gave support to what Bush felt able to call a "coalition".

From The Independent today

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=404877

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Dead right McTag bravo

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tv
Sounds like an American to me.

The media is about to get even easier to contrtol.

click me

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Quote:

...Like all parents, the U.S. pundits and editorialists discuss the finer points of tactics: When and how should you let the children have a say in decisions about their lives? When do you use positive reinforcements, and when negative consequences? When is punishment called for? What form should it take?...

...When liberals complain about the Bush administration's corporate scam, few say it's outright wrong. Their concern is almost always the public image of the U.S. The critics warn that such crude greed is unseemly and embarrassing. They treat the Bush administration like an overbearing bullying parent, who lives in a house with big windows and no curtains. "What will the neighbors think," they ask. How can we create world order if other nations don't trust us to be wise loving parents? The liberals also fear retaliation from other nations, whose corporations are rudely cut out of the action. If you want an enduring empire, you need partners to help you, they warn the right-wing unilateralists. But liberals understand that this scramble for windfall profit is just how capitalism works. For them, it's the system that made America great. And they are as sure as conservatives that the U.S. wants to be a wise loving parent, doing the right thing.

The American corporate empire depends on this whole condescending, paternalistic ideology, viewing the U.S. as the force of order and people of color as inherently disordered. It's the way white people in America have been talking about "the natives" for the last four centuries. The American public tolerates the corporate scam because they take this ideology as unquestioned truth. They have never heard anything else. As long as it goes unquestioned, the corporate empire is free to spread as far as its guns and bombs will take it. If the ideology begins to falter, though, the empire can not long endure.

If we really want the Iraqis to be liberated, we will have to free them from more than Bechtel, Haliburton, and Starbucks. We will have to free them from the ideology that creates and justifies imperialism. First, of course, we will have to free ourselves.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0509-06.htm

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Tartarin wrote:

Sofia -- Braggarts are not liked and admired. That's what America is being right now, a bully and a braggart. Just as with people, we like and admire countries which do the best they can, quietly celebrate their achievements when celebration is due, and turn over the task of praising to others. We constantly praise ourselves! What kind of people do that! The result is, of course, both Americans and non-Americans who find this odious and say so.

When did America brag? I think we do the best we can, and I think our best has been very helpful to the world. When you are rather large and powerful, your mistakes may certainly seem larger... But, what did we do such untoward bragging about? What makes the US so much worse than other countries?

Haven't we spent ungodly sums feeding other parts of the world? Haven't we helped fight for attacked and invaded countries? When we stand up for judgement, don't our good choices outweigh our bad?

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Sofia

Quote:

When did America brag?

Just note your politicians talking, over a period of one week, and count how many times the expression 'the greatest nation on earth' escapes those fulsome lips.

But it is rather more than that. Take for example the instances I've noted earlier of the Drug Czar popping up here and advising us that our drug-related legislation is ill-advised and might have economic consequences. Now, imagine a Canadian politician telling a meeting of bigwigs in Washington that the War on Drugs is foolish and if the US doesn't get wise in a hurry, we'll mess up border traffic and hurt their economy.

As to feeding the world...per capita, you are far down the list of charitable givers.

Yes, your government commonly bullies and bribes (ask the Turks).

Of course America isn't just a big pot of badness, but it has a lot of folks uniquely afraid to face what is bad about their country. It's a blindspot, and it stems from arrogance and mythology and misinformation.

To simply say that the good outweighs the bad (I think so too), is not an adequate stance, it is a justification for lack of introspection and refusal to change.

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Well said, Blatham.

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Sometimes there can be too much political tact, which leads to misunderstandings.

Sofia, we have done more than brag. We have gloated. We went into Afghanistan, said we rid the world of the wicked Taliban, now Afghanistan is free. Because we did it. None of it is true. The Taliban are back, working with the warlords we worked with. Afghanistan is not only not free, it's as tribal as ever, without much help from us in rebuilding. Yet Bush - who has never been there, or anywhere, brags about what WE did. We watch Rumsfeld wring his hands and gloat at the same time about Iraq. (Are these mixed body language messages?) And yet, every day we watch the Bush cabal get closer to what they wanted in the first place, which was certainly not a free Iraq.

Do you honestly believe that the rest of the world is so stupid and unobservant that they don't and can't see what's happening? I know the Bush cabal is so arrogantly stupid that they believe their own propaganda, but surely you're smarter than that?

Nobody likes us, everybody hates us, we're gonna go eat worms. Sooner than we think. A big country is quite often feared and envied, but when it starts being disrespected, laughed at, ridiculed, the fear leaves, and we are indeed reduced to a very small size.

I truly hate what they are doing to my country. And I have two children who frequently travel (one is now in Africa and another in Germany), and they have personal and business reports. And they have been saying for some time that the name Bush is anathema. Can this possibly make you proud?

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Let me get this right. Are we the only country that intones "the greatest country on the face of the earth"? Doesn't everyone say that about their country? If Canadian leaders say this to Canadians--it doesn't bother me. I wouldn't consider it my business if Mandela said this to South Africans... Why would a foreigner take offense to such a statement?

I've heard plenty of leaders in other countries make suggestions about US policies... Some anatomically impossible. Everybody talks. I assume some listen more to US suggestions, because of possible windfalls...(see next item) But, a sovereign government is free to dispatch US suggestions.

As far as bribes go, there are plenty of global dirty money deals going on... We wanted something. We were willing to pay for it. We didn't get it. Turkey is still in one piece. Smile

If that is an example of bullying, we're a pretty mild bully. And, aren't bribes supposed to be a secret? We shouted ours very publicly. Seems more like a potential business transaction that didn't close...

-------------------
America ... has a lot of folks uniquely afraid to face what is bad about their country. It's a blindspot, and it stems from arrogance and mythology and misinformation.
-------------------
That's a bold assumption. Fear about facing what's bad... ? Nah. People are working to improve what they feel is wrong, and celebrating what they feel is good. Wallowing in shortcomings is a waste of energy. The people you deem arrogant, and misinformed may just revel in the best of America, appreciate our opportunities, realize that while things aren't perfect--they wouldn't trade it in.
They may just not agree with the critics and naysayers.

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I haven't seen gloating.
I think it's in the eye of the beholder-- You see what you want to see.
From what I have seen, positive comments have been restrained.

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Something positive something positive .... that George sure knows how to steal an election weeeeeeouhh.

It's like on 9/11 Bush went to the wizzard.... you know ....Oz.... and got himself a brain

Before 9/11 .... putting food on his family

After 9/11 ... brilliant minded diplomat

I don't think so

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Blatham,

Canada has every right to enact whatever laws regarding marajuana it wishes, just as does the United States. Similarly we have every right to enforce whatever border controls we find appropriate given the differences that may exist across that border. The economic friction that such border controls creates will affect both parties. However the nation with the more favorable trade balance, in this case Canada, will be affected more. These are merely facts, not threats. In this case the facts are not with Canada.

It would be refreshing to me to see some evidence that some outside the United States who are so quick to find fault with the policies/psyche/culture of the United States had even a slight inclination to turn that critical attention to their own countries or even to the regimes they criticize us so vigorously for opposing. It is a curious imbalance, and one cannot but wonder at their motivation.

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geoge

Good to see you again.

To claim these aren't threats is clearly disengenuous, and that damages the credibility of anything you might add after that claim. The intent is to effect our decision-making processes here by saying, "If you do X, we will/might do damaging thing Y." That's a threat. But it is not just the US pushing its weight around that is egregious, it is the laughable assumption that the US had the drug problem figured out - when there are, for example, more black kids in prison for drug related offences than there are in US universities. So let's say the equation really is threat plus blinding pomposity.

What is it with Americans who can't accept that their nation screws up big time sometimes? It's not all of you by a long shot, but it sure is a lot of you. The refrain is precisely that of the person who complains, "People are mad at me and it is all their fault".

As to why the US gets singled out for criticism more than Denmark or more than New Zealand...it is because, for example, Canada DOESN'T have administration people in Washington behaving in such a manner.

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Blatham,

You illustrate my point very well.

The obvious reason why "the US gets singled out for criticism more...", is that what this country does generally matters more or has greater effects than do the actions of New Zealand, Denmark, or even Canada. The political virtues you imply for Canada have far more to do with the lack of opportunity than they do intrinsic merit.

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George

Nice that you are back!

I really could agree on your point and think, Blatham's remark " The refrain is precisely that of the person who complains, "People are mad at me and it is all their fault". " shows exactly the reaction.

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"Haven't we spent ungodly sums feeding other parts of the world? Haven't we helped fight for attacked and invaded countries? When we stand up for judgement, don't our good choices outweigh our bad?"

Sofia, in a way you answer your own questions about bragging. You're quoting the history books Lynn Cheney wants to make sure are the ones our kids read (maybe you're of that generation), rather than the ones which say, Yes, we helped Europe after WWII, but they were our allies and they also helped us; yes, we've spent "ungodly" sums on feeding the hungry elsewhere in the world, but the actual teensy proportion of our GNP which goes to help others is ungodly in the real sense of the word... So what we need to do, in my opinion, is do much less self-praise and be much wiser and more generous and hope to earn the praise of others. Praise from others is the only praise which counts.

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George

Yes, US influence in the world is greater than others, and than in itself is bound to cause some flak simply because interests are varied. But it would indicate a case of serious denial to assume that that is ALL that is going on.

Several relevant links to this topic and the discussions which have stemmed from it. First, on the lack of WOMD in Iraq http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40212-2003May10.html

And from the NY Review of Books... two pieces on news coverage of the war. The first I'll link, and the second I'll paste below... http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16293

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The US, UN & Iraq III

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