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The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 May, 2003 02:19 pm
I'm getting taken out to eat, and presents. But hey, I think above ground and vertical is a gift anymore.

Thanks, all!
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 May, 2003 02:39 pm
Thanks, Steve! Bon appetite, snood, and enjoy.


(And: more than 105,783 pages up to now!)
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 May, 2003 06:01 pm
Snood, you look like Ray Charles.

But maybe you don't know that

Fine looking man

What'd I Say?
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JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 May, 2003 07:49 pm
blatham, Thanks for your reply of Fri May 02, 2003 9:45 am

We seem to be in agreement as your following quote demonstrates about the UN question:

"The problem you point to - the difficulty of a supra-national body such as the UN to accomodate the diversity of interests of the world's states is a real difficulty. But it's not impossible, as you suggest in pointing to your own federation of states. But it IS impossible where one of those states absolutely refuses to fall within the confines of an over-arching set of principles and rules. There is NO possible design for such a supra-national body available in such a case."

We do seem to differ, however, as to whether it matters which state is the main reason for the UN's ineffectiveness. You seem to say the U.S. is the transgressor entirely or mostly to blame. In addition you are angered because the U.S. used "deceit"ful reasons to justify its actions.

I state that there has been and will continue to be a linneage of transgressors that trample UN hopes. The specific nation seems of little consequence. Given the U.S. invading Iraq, U.S.S.R. invading Afghanistan, or China invading Tibet, the U.N. still appears ineffective in the prevention of these types of actions.

Does anyone remember China's or the U.S.S.R.'s reasons for their invasions? Did they lie? Would it change anything if these nations were truthful as to their reasons? If they did, would it really matter to their victims? Would it change anything if these nations were truthful just before their incursions? If the UN had decided to push China out of Tibet, could it have? Yes it could have but what if China said effectively "Make Me!", firmly standing their ground?

Perhaps our differences are philosophical where you are perhaps Jeffersonian, trying to see the innate goodness in mankind and trying to extrapolate this into his institutions. I see myself more Adamsonian (John) finding the innate selfishness of mankind constantly manifested.

Obviously the ideal solution would entail employing both these schools of thought. If we could only find a similar solution analagous to the federation of the U.S. However, the force driving those early colonist to unify was one of a common threat, Europe.
What common enemy would draw all the members of the UN together?

Respectfully,

JM
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 May, 2003 08:02 pm
From The New Republic online:

Quote:
TRB FROM WASHINGTON
Sore Winner
by Peter Beinart

Post date 05.01.03 | Issue date 05.12.03

Americans sometimes wonder why so many non-Americans view the United States as a bully. Are they jealous, resentful, irrationally afraid? Perhaps. But there's a simpler explanation for the widespread perception that the United States is vindictive, arrogant, and petty. Under this administration, it's true.

Consider the Bush team's behavior over the past few weeks toward countries that opposed the war in Iraq. Almost as soon as the fighting stopped, the French government started trying to mend fences. Paris abandoned its long-standing opposition to NATO control over the peacekeeping force in Afghanistan. In a surprise concession, and a break with Russia, it agreed to suspend (though not remove) U.N. sanctions on post-Saddam Hussein Iraq. Jacques Chirac warned Syria not to harbor Iraqi officials and telephoned George W. Bush, breaking a months-long silence between the two men. Jean-David Levitte, France's ambassador to the United States, said his government wanted to "turn this bitter page and think positively about what we have to do together."

The Bush administration responded with a high-level meeting to decide how to punish Paris for opposing the war. According to reports in The New York Times and The Washington Post, the Bushies are considering downgrading France's status at international meetings and bypassing the North Atlantic Council, NATO's governing body, because France is a member. Bush officials noted that when the president attends the G-8 summit in Evian, France, this June, he will stay across the border in Switzerland. No pettiness here.

And it's not only France. President Bush, who famously refused to place a congratulatory phone call to Gerhard Schroeder after he was reelected on an antiwar platform, has not spoken to the German leader yet this year. The White House recently canceled a Bush trip to Ottawa, leading one Canadian academic to tell the Times that relations between the two countries were at "the lowest moment since the early 1960s." The United States has pointedly refused to set a date for signing a long-planned free-trade deal with Chile, which refused to use its rotating Security Council seat to back a second resolution authorizing war. (There are also reports, denied by Bush officials, that the United States has slowed talks on a trade deal with Thailand as punishment for its lukewarm stance on the war.) White House Envoy to the Americas Otto Reich recently warned Caribbean countries that their antiwar stance might bring U.S. "consequences." And, in a slap at Mexican President Vicente Fox, the former Bush pal who refused to back the Iraq war, the White House has scrapped this year's Cinco de Mayo celebrations. Pettiness? Perish the thought.

This retaliation isn't just vindictive; it's deeply stupid. First of all, it will hurt Iraq. Andrew Natsios, administrator of the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), recently told "Nightline"'s Ted Koppel that USAID would spend $1.7 billion this year--and not a penny more--to reconstruct Iraq. That's quite an admission, considering that the Council on Foreign Relations has put the cost of rebuilding Iraq at roughly $15 billion per year for the rest of the decade, and the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments has put the cost far higher. (When experts hear Bush officials claim that exports from Iraq's decrepit oil industry will fund the reconstruction, they generally laugh.)

After the first Gulf war, America's allies wrote most of the checks that rebuilt Kuwait. In fact, over and over in recent years--in Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan--the United States has bled to win the war, and its democratic allies have paid to win the peace. It's a formula that needs to be vastly expanded if Iraq is to become a stable, liberal country. But, by doling out postwar snubs and restricting postwar contracts to U.S. firms, the Bush administration is doing its best to ensure that countries such as France, Germany, and Canada don't fork over the money Iraq desperately needs. Tony Blair sees the folly in this. Which is why Britain supports a large U.N. role in post-Saddam Iraq, a role that will give countries that opposed the war the political cover they need to fund Iraqi reconstruction. The White House, however, isn't listening to Blair--after all, even British companies weren't invited to bid for USAID contracts in postwar Iraq.

But the bigger problem isn't the impact of White House score-settling on Iraq; it's the impact on the United States. Key Bush officials--particularly Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld--clearly believe Al Qaeda and Saddam were emboldened in the 1990s by U.S. weakness. Their solution: Show terrorists and dictators that the United States hasn't gone soft; restore some good old-fashioned fear of Uncle Sam.

As an analysis of Saddam, Osama bin Laden, and Kim Jong Il, this makes sense. What has become appallingly clear in recent weeks, however, is that many in the Bush team apply the same logic to independent-minded Western democracies such as France, Germany, Canada, and Chile. The problem with America's relationships with its allies, they seem to feel, is that we don't throw our weight around enough. If we make countries that opposed the war suffer, they'll be more pliant next time around.

But there's a key difference between the way Bashar Al Assad makes decisions and the way Gerhard Schroeder does. It's called democracy. Supporters of the administration train their anger on antiwar leaders. Ask many American conservatives why France opposed the war, and, without missing a beat, they'll say it was because Chirac has a corrupt history with Iraq and feared what the United States might find in the Baghdad archives once Saddam was gone. What they generally overlook is that public opinion in France--and virtually everywhere else in Europe--massively opposed the war. I think those large antiwar majorities were wrong, but they were a response to perceived American arrogance and aggression. As Charles Grant, director of London's Center for European Reform, recently noted to Businessweek, "In every West European country, polls show that George W. Bush is seen as a greater threat to world peace than Saddam." Europeans ignored Saddam's horrors and identified with Iraq as a small country being pushed around by the United States. That public sentiment led leaders in Europe and in democracies such as Chile, Canada, Mexico, and Turkey to oppose the war. (In the case of Schroeder, a pro-war stance would probably have cost him reelection.)

In other words, governments across the world opposed the Iraq war to appease citizenries angered by perceived U.S. bullying. So now that the war is over--and our military victory gives us a chance to improve America's image--the Bush administration has responded with a fresh round of bullying. Sounds like a winning strategy to me.

Peter Beinart is the editor of TNR.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 May, 2003 09:29 pm
nimh

Beinart has it right, I think, on a number of counts. Earlier, on this or another thread, I posted the words of a US official who a couple of days ago threatened Canada with economic consequences if we went ahead with our plans to decriminalize marijana for personal use (his words were merely the most recent, preceded by the same threat from the US ambassador and the Drug Czar).

An item I didn't post, was another US administration official who last week said Canada was too concerned with privacy and civil rights issues, and that this was getting in the way of US strategies on terror.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 May, 2003 10:03 pm
James
Quote:
We do seem to differ, however, as to whether it matters which state is the main reason for the UN's ineffectiveness. You seem to say the U.S. is the transgressor entirely or mostly to blame.

No. I'm saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE to establish a supra-national regimen of over-arching laws and processes where the most powerful nation refuses to accept the constraints that accompany such community membership. It is a logical point. This alone precludes an effective UN or comparable body.
Quote:
I state that there has been and will continue to be a linneage of transgressors that trample UN hopes. The specific nation seems of little consequence. Given the U.S. invading Iraq, U.S.S.R. invading Afghanistan, or China invading Tibet, the U.N. still appears ineffective in the prevention of these types of actions.


War is not at all the key issue here, though it is advanced by this present administration (and by yourself) as such. The US refuses the possibility of allowing itself and it's citizens/representatives to be judged by the ICC, yet wishes to be allowed to use that body to prosecute others. It refused to fall under the constraints of the Kyoto accord, and one is hard pressed to imagine any such accord which this administration will sign on to, wishing instead to steer a course governed by it's own self interest.
Quote:
Perhaps our differences are philosophical where you are perhaps Jeffersonian, trying to see the innate goodness in mankind and trying to extrapolate this into his institutions. I see myself more Adamsonian (John) finding the innate selfishness of mankind constantly manifested.

The Hobbesian world. How on earth can folks like Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld - who have all lived lives of incredible wealth and priviledge, and who are presently protected by many millions of dollars stashed awy from the vagaries of normal life - have even the slightest familiarity the downside of a Hobbesian world? Which is, of course, the side most everyone else will be and is subject to.
But, even under the logic here, it is presumed that the US (like others) will act as a selfish predator. Laws and institutions exist precisely to minimize the consequences of this side of human behavior, and it is these laws and institutions which have served to allow what advancement we have made in social affairs.
Quote:
However, the force driving those early colonist to unify was one of a common threat, Europe.
What common enemy would draw all the members of the UN together?
What was that threat from Europe?
It was, as much as anything, the threat of dominance by a state more powerful. That alone should clue the US into a different mindset.
The common enemies will arise. That's guaranteed. Degradation of environment, further (and more serious) epidemics, the natural resentment of those in great poverty towards those in great affluence (particularly where the powerful holds itself apart and above others), the consequences of the social upheavals which the earlier points address, etc. What the US is being so incredibly stupid about is that all of these threats noted above are already here. And terorism didn't arise out of the blue, or from Satan.
A final little irony in all of this. The US is now about to move its forces out of Saudi Arabia. This was Osama's first and most fundamental cause.
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mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 May, 2003 11:24 pm
Thank you, Blatham.

And to think. That only talks about the administration's attitude towards other parts of the world. The same arrogant disregard for its own citizens is still another aspect.

But the petty, childish behavior of grown men is beyond belief. Freedom fries, decks of cards....we will progress from being considered bullies to being considered ridiculous, and that is where the fun will begin.

The appearance is of men playing at being leaders without understanding what that means. In two hundred years we should have progressed beyond this.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 May, 2003 11:42 pm
Hey, for having Dan Quayle as a mentor Bush turned out ok .....
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 May, 2003 02:08 am
Meanwhile, WMD find is not seen as politically crucial in Washington.

In London, however, Blair has made it clear that he expects to be able to demonstrate that the invasion was sparked by legitimate concerns.


I'm not wondering ....
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 May, 2003 06:26 am
Q. How many weapons inspectors does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. What lightbulb?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 May, 2003 07:08 am
Before the war we were told (by Tony Blair) that Saddam could disarm within a few weeks if he only co operated with the inspectors (and he could stay in power too). But he wasn't co operating (enough), and this issue was so important, we had to go to war, invade Iraq and force Saddam to co operate or kill him.

Now we are in Iraq there are according to Tommy Franks up to a thousand sites where WMD might be hidden. We "know" Saddam had them. Iraqis must know where they are. But we do not appeared to be bothered. It is apparantly more important to suppress any residual resistance and bring in humanitarian aid than to validate the reason we went to war in the first place.

Blair says "wait and see"....we will produce WMD. Why the delay? And why will they not allow Dr Blix to verify their discoveries?

The whole reason for the war is coming apart at the seams.

Of course it was never anything to do with disarming Saddam. If he had any WMD he could never use them under the UN inspection regime.

As I've said all along, this war was fought for American geopolitical imperatives, specifically securing oil assets and protecting Israel.

WMD were always the excuse never the real reason for invading Iraq.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 May, 2003 07:12 am
And I drive a car and I don't wish to see the Israelis destroyed so they weren't bad reasons
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 May, 2003 07:52 am
whadaya whadaya whadaya wanna bet that WOMD will be 'found' at a coincidentally perfect point in the election cycle.

These guys are not much interested in telling citizens the actual truth, but they are VERY interested in winning. It's the way they've played the game until now, and that won't change.

And in the meantime, you get such as...
Quote:
a fundamental reinterpretation of environmental law, and a reversal of four decades of federal wilderness policy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/04/opinion/04SUN1.html
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 May, 2003 07:56 am
I agree with your first statement above. They will be discovered at the right Kodak moment.

I can't even discuss this administration's moves against the environment. I get too depressed.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 May, 2003 08:00 am
Orlando, Fla, Nov. 17 -- Declaring that "I am not a crook," President Nixon vigorously defended his record in the Watergate case tonight and said he had never profited from his public service.

Ronald Regan when questioned about Irangate answered "I don't remember"

George H W Bush "Read my lips, no new taxes"
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 May, 2003 08:14 am
I'll post a link to the Leo-cons article. I think one can do a link, unprotected by a password, if it is today's paper

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/04/weekinreview/04ATLA.html
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 May, 2003 08:15 am
And here is Tom Friedman's piece.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/04/opinion/04FRIE.html
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 May, 2003 08:22 am
That's one of Tom Friedman's less awful pieces, but I agree with those who see him as a wind-up toy.

One of the interesting things about the prospective discovery of WMD's is the administration's declarations before March 19 that "Intelligence" showed not only that there were WMD's but showed precisely where they are. Hmmm.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 May, 2003 09:10 am
I got up early this morning, read a little and then went back to bed for one of those great second sleeps, a whole night's sleep in a half hour my dad used to say. And I had a dream, I saw the jet land on the carrier and George get out and start walking down the deck and a chief petty officer walks over to him and arrests him for AWOL/Desertion.

Does a copy of GWBush honorable discharge exist? Who signed it?

Does anyone know how long the wives, husbands and children of the carrier's crew were delayed in seeing their loved ones by this cynical dog and pony show? Do you remember the rightwingers screaming about the mythical haircut airport delay of Bill Clinton? How long was this wait and for what? Is the war over? Well, sort of. No release of POWs, no surrender documents, just a sort of 'okay, that's two" statement.

I'm going back to bed.

J
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