0
   

The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
frolic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 02:23 pm
The sons of Saddam weren't "every single person". They were key officials in the Saddam regime. I prefered Iraqi people judging them, not the bullet of a 20 year old who probably cant find Iraq on a world map.
link
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 02:29 pm
frolic,

It was not known that Saddam's sons were there. So again, should every single person who fires at the US forces be surrounded for days just in case they are Saddam's sons?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 02:39 pm
I understood the tip off by the person who is getting the 30 million was that the sons were there.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 02:58 pm
Frolic
Do you think they are playing tidily winks over there? Despite what Bush said the war is ongoing and US troops are being killed every day. They were given a chance to surrender and answered with gunfire wounding three soldiers. After that they became fair game. I realize that as far as you are concerned the only fair game are US troops. And that they are always on the wrong side of and fight. Your bias is as always shines through.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 03:01 pm
LW,

The news about the tip conflicts with other reports. But ultimately the soldiers on the ground claim that they know there possibly were important people but didn't know who.

It's possible that both the tip story and the other story about the soldiers not knowing is true.

And it's also possible that the anonymous tipster does not exist and that those reports are meant to generate leads for the 30 million bounty. The military has phrased the comments about the tipster in delicate ways. When they do that it's usually to get a point across that they are hoping to convey.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 03:49 pm
Craven, do you suppose that we should send 200 troops, a couple of helicopters and bradleys, then toss 10 tows at everyone that takes a shot at us?
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 04:02 pm
au, I think frolic and others of us are having a problem with these stories of the Execution, whether it can be styled that way or not. (I see in this morning's NYTimes that there is a possibility that Qusay committed suicide.)

We in America are used to our country's leaders telling us throughout history that the principles of our country are noble, that we believe in justice and the fair dispensation of it to everyone. We believe that all men are created equal (sorta,) a man is innocent until proved guilty, and highmindness is behind US action. Something is happening in the US that a few of us are having trouble getting our minds around. Suddenly, we are the only ones who are right. Our incredible power ought to make us humble and cautious. Instead, it makes us arrogant. We can, and do, roll roughshod over opposition. We negotiate only when it seems in our best interest.

Craven, every story I have read tells of a tip that Saddam's sons were in that house.

I was repulsed by the assault in Mosel, the overwhelming excess-of-power of it. Then Habibi made me think of what would have been the consequences of not doing what we did. He may be right. But the consequences are there because of our original attack and colonization of Iraq.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 04:14 pm
Kara, It also disturbs me that this administration uses "power" without thinking. Brute force is never the right answer, and never should be. Any stupid yokel can use brute force; it's takes intelligence to negotiate a peaceful resolution. If the situations were turned around, and we were at the mercy of a superpower, I'd sure hate to think that we were at the mercy of GWBush and company. c.i.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 04:32 pm
Gelisgesti wrote:
Craven, do you suppose that we should send 200 troops, a couple of helicopters and bradleys, then toss 10 tows at everyone that takes a shot at us?


Depends on the situation. In this situation I think it was appropriate. Given what the soldiers on the ground knew they acted appropriately.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 04:36 pm
Kara wrote:
Craven, every story I have read tells of a tip that Saddam's sons were in that house.


So? Every story I read contains mention of a tip. Look deeper. You will find that the mention of the tip is intentionally played up by the military in hopes of whetting the appetite for Saddam's bounty. You will also find that the military claims that teh soldiers who attacked the compound were not aware of the fish they had to fry.

It's not mutually exclusive that a tipster led to the compound and that the soldiers who laid seige to the compound were not aware that Saddam's sons were there.

It's not even necessary for the tipster to have known that Saddam's sons were there. It might have been a tip that big fish were there without specific names.

That's why I ask, so?

I know about the tip. What does that have to do with it? The military claims that the soldiers did not know who they were attacking. Do you contest that claim?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 07:06 pm
I suspect that whoever was in the choppers, or in tanks, or on the ground probably didn't know the sons were in the house simply because there was no reason for them to know. But unless attacks utilizing that amount of firepower on a single house are commonplace (which seems doubtful, as I can't recall reading of another such incident), the soldiers would have properly assumed someone important was there.

Craven
The coverage I've read certainly does suggest that the US was tipped off as to who was there. And that makes sense anyway, as this isn't going to be a house to house search operation, but rather, will rely mainly on intelligence. The reward you mention has that as its precise goal.

I have no reason at all to trust a Pentagon spokesperson's claim they didn't know who was there. And once again, the opposite seems far more likely to be the case.

Thus, I also think it most likely that the mission was assassination. The motive(s) for such a mission are not clear.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 07:14 pm
If you know that the soldiers who attacked the house did not know who was inside, then the situation is different. They must have been told that the target was bigtime and to take it out.

Craven, although I find myself being swept up by passionate communiqués a la Douglas Valentine, I am basically ultra rational and always end up burrowing for the facts. We do not know what the facts are in Iraq, so I am inclined to back away and wait, for months or years, to assess what has happened and what we have done.

But I am tempted to come here and listen to the latest finds and rush to judgement.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 07:25 pm
blatham wrote:
I suspect that whoever was in the choppers, or in tanks, or on the ground probably didn't know the sons were in the house simply because there was no reason for them to know.


It's also possible that the tip was not that specific. That it mentioned big fish but did not name them.

blatham wrote:

But unless attacks utilizing that amount of firepower on a single house are commonplace (which seems doubtful, as I can't recall reading of another such incident), the soldiers would have properly assumed someone important was there.


I think attacks in which 3 solders are wounded draw that kind of firepower routinely.

blatham wrote:

I have no reason at all to trust a Pentagon spokesperson's claim they didn't know who was there. And once again, the opposite seems far more likely to be the case.


Other than a knee-jerk distrust do you have anything to support this? Even a possible motive? Because it makes precious little sense. I can understand someone thinking they lied about being fired upon but these knee-jerk reactions to the effect that every time the Pentagon says something it's false are making the anti-war camp look daft.

blatham wrote:

Thus, I also think it most likely that the mission was assassination. The motive(s) for such a mission are not clear.


Rolling Eyes

Then at least come up with a good conspiracy theory. You call the unimportant tid-bits lies and neglect the more important facets of the story, where the real lies would occur.

The US has made no secret of it's desire to capture or kill these guys, why lie about it? Your automatic distrust of everything from the Pentagon undermines the times when you are justifiably suspicious.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 08:07 pm
Completely different slide show of avatars, Craven, on this page. Weird!
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 08:14 pm
I'm on Blatham's side in this argument. What seem like rational quibbles on Craven's part are, in my view, an inability to see the whole picture. Even (possibly) the inability to profit (as Blatham has) from experience!

We're now faced with an administration which virtually never tells the truth. Even when it comes out with something approaching fact, it mistates, it blurs, it temporizes. Add to that deliberate secrecy in all matters and I'd say it would be downright naive, if not dangerous, to believe a damn thing they say unless they can prove it, not just leave it to us to prove the contrary.

The burden of proof lies with those guys now, without question...
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 08:22 pm
craven

Gosh, you are feeling your argumentative oats today.

We are all having to make big inferences and surmises on this particular story, thus what I suppose isn't more or less available for serious scrutiny than what others suppose.

As regards my distrust of Pentagon statements, I'll be happy to discuss this absent the 'knee jerk' adjectives.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 08:28 pm
Quote:
Other than a knee-jerk distrust do you have anything to support this? Even a possible motive? Because it makes precious little sense. I can understand someone thinking they lied about being fired upon but these knee-jerk reactions to the effect that every time the Pentagon says something it's false are making the anti-war camp look daft.


Craven, I agree with blatham here. Knee-jerk distrust comes from knowing that the Pentagon will always cover its backside. We have seen so much back and fill. The official-speak is presented to bolster the admin's side and to encourage the people to support the war-line. Please. You must know it could not be otherwise.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 08:34 pm
i do realize that my attitude is colored by my own experiences in southeast indo-china specifically McNamara and Westmoreland, but yes i tend to go on auto-pilot in questioning everything that comes out of the DOD. kneejerk? yeah
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 08:42 pm
You wouldn't just call that smart, Dys? I would. Don't go all humble now!!
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 09:08 pm
From John Dean, former White House counsel for Nixon...
Quote:
What I found in critically examining Bush's evidence is not pretty. The African uranium matter is merely indicative of larger problems and troubling questions of potential and widespread criminality when taking the nation to war. It appears that not only the Niger uranium hoax, but most everything else that Bush said about Saddam Hussein's weapons, was false, fabricated, exaggerated or phony.
http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/8436
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
  1. Forums
  2. » The US, UN & Iraq III
  3. » Page 168
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 05/07/2025 at 10:35:40