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The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 07:49 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
lol Setanta, do I detect a note of sarcasm here?


Qui ça . . . moi?

heaven forfend . . .
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 08:04 am
Interesting article from the boston Pheonix blatham thanks.

I rather like the Southern Baptists, at least you know what you're getting...no wishy washy Church of England hand wringing and equivocating. Take this quote from Dr. Jerry Vines, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Florida.

"Islam was founded by Mohammed, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives — and his last one was a nine-year-old girl."
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 08:13 am
Nine year old girl ? ! ? ! ?

Was Mohammed from West Virginia?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 08:18 am
er maybe....I'm going to think very carefully before answering that one, I suspect a trap.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 08:19 am
West Virgina . . . three million citizens, nine family names . . .
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 08:21 am
Saw this and thought of you guys...

http://www.cagle.com/comics/updating/payne.gif
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 08:23 am
Uh oh, Blatham. I have a QUIBBLE with you! -- or maybe a hen/egg dispute. You write: "Richard Perle and Ann Coulter are ubiquitous because they understand that the media is a voracious vacuum that will fill up with something...so they fill it with their voices."

Who's the voracious vacuum? It's the public, without whom the media would close down, without whom Perle and Coulter would be confining their opinions to their spouses and shower stalls. The media are interMEDIAries, not end users. We get to call the shots by a) watching, reading, listening, (or not) and b) buying advertised products (or not). We prefer (evidently) to gorge ourselves on 24/7 titillation (aka, newsertainment). When we're disgusted with what we see and hear, we portray ourselves as victims in this mess, and we are not. If not also the perps, we're at least the collaborators. Ain't nothin' gonna change till we change.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 08:34 am
McGentrix

Even the cartoons you like are...well, the only word to describe it is...slugh.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 08:41 am
Oh, c'mon now! You don't honestly think that even _I_ don't find that a bit too much...Just thought it was funny. I mean the Bush voodoo doll is a great touch!
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 08:43 am
Steve - My you changed direction suddenly... okay.

Is it possible that Ritter refused requests for interviews, or must it be a conspiracy?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 08:53 am
Tartarin

Our first fight!....I am beside myself (and no handsomer over there, damn).

True, it is a two-sided equation. I have to head out door, so can't take this one up right now, but quickly I'd suggest that 1) I see the change occuring not in the audience so much as in the provider, and 2) I see possibility for 'correction' by going after media ownership via legislation but very little hope of changing broad social behavior.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 09:00 am
scrat

For goodness sake...where did you dredge up the term 'conspiracy' from?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 09:02 am
Tartarin, I think that was Setanta actually.

I agree with you to a certain extent, but I think Set makes some good points. Most people don't have the time to search for news, they just go down the News o Mart and help themselves. You can't blame them.

McGentrix: that cartoon

Believe me as a Brit I have no partisan axe to grind on Pearl Harbour (except for the spelling, ok Harbor it is). In fact I never really thought about it in any depth, until quite recently that is. But I now think it quite likely that FDR knew it was going to happen and allowed the US fleet to be caught napping. A horrible thought perhaps, but the eventual outcome was good. So thanks FDR (and thanks to all those American boys who fought with us against the nazis).

Also were not the original Pearl Harbor conspiracy theorists from the Republican right against Democrat FDR? The cartoon implies all "alternative" histories come from the left.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 09:02 am
A too fertile and unfettered an imagination . . .

(edited to note that this is a response to BLatham's last question . . . )
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 09:17 am
Scrat, regarding my sudden change in direction, I find that intriguing...where did you have me coming from before, and where now?

I don't think there was necessarily a conspiracy to keep Scot Ritter off the tv. He might have as you suggest, just decided not to give interviews, maybe the fees weren't grand enough. Or it might be that he was scared to death about being fitted up with false charges of peadeophilia...who knows.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 10:10 am
I watched Scott Ritter resist the insinuations of, turn the tables on, and quietly, effectively embarrass a Fox interviewer (who got frustrated and mad as hell) It was fun to watch, like watching really good defense during a basketball game. Not having TV, I don't know when Ritter stopped being on TV, as you all say, but I wouldn't be surprised if those interviewers who have been trying to embarrass Ritter have backed off after that Fox debacle. I saw this at the health club a couple of months ago, pre-war. For those who might wonder which Foxy I mean, I don't know his name, but he has kind of a brushcut and wide eyes and is on in the early afternoon CST.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 12:38 pm
Promoting the idea that Bush staged a scenerio to invade Iraq based on WMD being anything like World War II, Pearl Harbor or the like is a ludicrous red herring. It's political propaganda in the end that there may be a politcal price to pay. Ante up...
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 02:45 pm
lw

please expand on this:

"It's political propaganda in the end that there may be a politcal price to pay."
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 03:00 pm
Quote:
The reasons given for the Iraq war were mostly because of the WMD, yes, but there were other reasons for it. This is from Public Law 107-243, entitled "Authorization for use of military force against Iraq Resolution of 2002." These are the reasons given for the war other than the WMD:

Quote:
Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolution of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;

Quote:
Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States, including by attempting in 1993 to assassinate former President Bush and by firing on many thousands of occasions on United States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council;

Quote:
Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

Quote:
Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;

Quote:
Whereas United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) authorizes the use of all necessary means to enforce United Nations Security Council Resolution 660 (1990) and subsequent relevant resolutions and to compel Iraq to cease certain activities that threaten international peace and security, including the development of weapons of mass destruction and refusal or obstruction of United Nations weapons inspections in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 (1991), repression of its civilian population in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 (1991), and threatening its neighbors or United Nations operations in Iraq in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 949 (1994);

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;

Quote:

Quote:
Whereas Congress has taken steps to pursue vigorously the war on terrorism through the provision of authorities and funding requested by the President to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;

Quote:
Whereas the President and Congress are determined to continue to take all appropriate actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;

Quote:
Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40); and

Quote:
Whereas it is in the national security interests of the United States to restore international peace and security to the Persian Gulf region:

Those are the reasons for the war. This is the authorization for the war:

Quote:

Link - you'll need the free Adobe Acrobat reader from www.adobe.com if you don't already have it.

So now, let's clearly understand that this war was authorized and approved by the Congress of the United States of America, through House Joint Resolution 114, October 10, 2002. And in House Concurrent Resolution 104, March 20, 2003, Congress expressed its support for the war:

Quote:
Whereas the United States Armed Forces, a total force comprised of active, National Guard, and Reserve personnel, are now undertaking courageous and determined operations against the forces of Saddam Hussein's regime;

Whereas the Senate and House of Representatives and the American people have the greatest pride in the members of the Armed Forces and strongly support them;

Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338) stated that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;

Whereas on October 16, 2002, the President signed into law House Joint Resolution 114 of the 107th Congress, the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Public Law 107-243), which provides congressional authorization for the use of military force against Iraq;

Whereas the United Nations Security Council, in Security Council Resolution 1441, adopted on November 8, 2002, voted unanimously that Iraq `...will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations' to disarm in accordance with all relevant United Nations resolutions;

Whereas Iraq remains in material breach of the relevant United Nations resolutions;

Whereas the United States has assembled and deployed an allied military coalition to apply pressure on Saddam Hussein to comply with the relevant United Nations resolutions;

Whereas on March 18, 2003, the President transmitted to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate the President's determination, consistent with the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Public Law 107-243), that reliance by the United States on further diplomatic and other peaceful means alone will neither adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq nor likely lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq, and that the President's use of military force against Iraq is consistent with necessary ongoing efforts by the United States and other countries against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001;

Whereas on the evening of March 17, 2003, the President of the United States issued Saddam Hussein and his sons a final ultimatum to leave Iraq within 48 hours or face United States military intervention;

Whereas, when Saddam Hussein failed to comply, the President ordered United States Armed Forces to commence military operations against the forces of Saddam Hussein during the evening of March 19, 2003, under the code name of Operation Iraqi Freedom, in order to liberate Iraq, remove Saddam Hussein from power, and neutralize Iraq's weapons of mass destruction;

Whereas the United States Armed Forces and allied forces are performing their missions with great courage and distinction in carrying out air, land, and sea attacks against Iraqi military targets; and

Whereas the ability of the Armed Forces to successfully perform their mission requires the support of their nation, community, and families: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), That the Congress expresses the unequivocal support and appreciation of the Nation--

(1) to the President as Commander-in-Chief for his firm leadership and decisive action in the conduct of military operations in Iraq as part of the on-going Global War on Terrorism;

(2) to the members of the United States Armed Forces serving in Operation Iraqi Freedom, who are carrying out their missions with excellence, patriotism, and bravery; and

(3) to the families of the United States military personnel serving in Operation Iraqi Freedom, who are providing support and prayers for their loved ones currently engaged in military operations in Iraq.

Link

This is not a case of a "rogue leader" running amuck and attacking a defenseless and innocent regime. And it's not a case of an "illegal" war, since Congress justified why it was necessary for reasons other than the WMD. And it's not a case of going against the United Nations, since the UN wasn't taking action to enforce their own resolutions. This also applies to the UK justification, because that went through Parliament also, several times. It wasn't just Tonly Blair's decision.

Now, as to the Administration lying to the world about intelligence reports, take a look at Colin Powell's address to the United Nations in February. It is located here:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/iraq/20030205-1.html

Read through that transcript and show me the lies in it. I couldn't find any. What Colin Powell is saying is "here is what we have heard, here is what we have seen, here is what we have been told." For example, here's what he said about a tape of a conversation between two Republican Guard officers:

Quote:
POWELL: Let me pause and review some of the key elements of this conversation that you just heard between these two officers.

First, they acknowledge that our colleague, Mohamed ElBaradei, is coming, and they know what he's coming for, and they know he's coming the next day. He's coming to look for things that are prohibited. He is expecting these gentlemen to cooperate with him and not hide things.

But they're worried. "We have this modified vehicle. What do we say if one of them sees it?''

What is their concern? Their concern is that it's something they should not have, something that should not be seen.

The general is incredulous: "You didn't get a modified. You don't have one of those, do you?''

"I have one.''

"Which, from where?''

"From the workshop, from the Al Kendi (ph) Company?''

"What?''

"From Al Kendi (ph).''

"I'll come to see you in the morning. I'm worried. You all have something left.''

"We evacuated everything. We don't have anything left.''

Note what he says: "We evacuated everything.''

We didn't destroy it. We didn't line it up for inspection. We didn't turn it into the inspectors. We evacuated it to make sure it was not around when the inspectors showed up.

"I will come to you tomorrow.''

The Al Kendi (ph) Company: This is a company that is well known to have been involved in prohibited weapons systems activity.

So enough with the accusations of lying. Please. If their information was in error, that's not lying, that's decision-making based on bad information.

0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Jun, 2003 03:10 pm
Doesn't get it.
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