JamesMorrison wrote:Much is being made by those opposed to the war in Iraq about WMD. Those in that camp, in their pre-war arguments, seemed prone to relegate Saddam's possession and proven use of WMD to the realm of unimportance when qualifying reasons justifying military action. This same group now inversely elevates these weapons to a casus belli when arguing the importance that the U.S. finds WMD to validate its cause for the War.
Not true. Consider this: While I am among those who did not think the "threat" of WMDs were justification for the war I plainly recognize that it WAS touted as a casus belli. It was the only of the myriad reasons for invading Iraq that gave anything remotely like a mandate.
The attention drawn to the lack of WMDs thus far and the overstated case made to go to war
does not mean that those who opposed suddeny think it's a casus belli. It means that what was touted as a certainty and an urgent need for war turned out to be less certain and less urgent than previously indicated.
Incidentally I think this is a case of the pot calling the cottonball black because if any side can be accused of a dramatic reversal in emphasis it is the war camp who spoke of mushroom clouds looming, claimed that the WMDs gave a legal mandate for war and who now try to make the most of the liberation of the Iraqi people (a good thing) when WMDs were the stated reason (or at least the primary reason) that we went to war.
JamesMorrison wrote:Which shall it be? Either WMD are important or they are not.
I ask the pro-war camp the same thing, now that it seems obvious that the smoking gun would not have been a mushroom cloud why the reversal?
JamesMorrison wrote:It is, of course, a moot point, especially now that we see statements implying that even if these weapons are found they will be dismissed as part of an American conspiracy involving salting of WMD sites. I guess we will have to institute body cavity searches of those inspecting those sites before they begin.
Actually simply allowing international observers (read UN inspectors) to tag along would help quash this except in the most fertile of minds.
JamesMorrison wrote:Conspiracy theories are always useful in such cases because lack of actual proof is viewed, by proponents, as excellent proof of how pernicious and extensive the conspiracy actually is.
Kinda like the Iraq/Al Quaeda connection.
JamesMorrison wrote:Apparently, America now must demonstrate, post war, what Saddam was supposed to but did not in order to prevent a war: a valid chain of evidence. The fact that Saddam admitted to having WMD (as well as SCUDS etc.) and promised to destroy them as part of the deal for a cease fire in 1991 also seems to get lost in the shuffle for some reason.
The reason, for me, is that the US made it quite plain, again to me, that disarmament would not have prevented the war despite it being touted as the goal.
Powell said that a disarmed Iraq would be a regime change but talk like that was quickly altered.
JamesMorrison wrote:An administration that is perceived as crying, "Wolf!" to not only its citizens but also its allies is one without creditability. This is only more ammunition to its critics and enemies and does the U.S. no favors in regards to future international engagements.
James,
The credibility has been questioned abroad for some time. I personally have had bones to pick about the way in which reports of shaky value were being trumpeted.
Let's do it this way. I bet we can agree that there was not any real solid evidence tying Saddam to personal involvement in the 9/11 attacks.
Yet a large portion of the American Public believed this. And IMO it is due to some creative intel management.
JamesMorrison wrote:What is clear to me is that the "powers that be" felt that their real reason for going to war would be misunderstood by the American public and understood only too well by the rest of the world. They were probably correct in this assumption. Its safe to say that I am not alone in feeling that Iraq was "ripe" for an ideological regime change, its method of implementation not withstanding.
Earlier you mock the derision by those who claim the US overstated the WMD case yet here you clearly imply that it was misconstrued so as to mislead.
Is this not something that undermines credibility? If you think that the time for war was right but that your compatriots would not have accepted the real reasons for it do you still consider anything to be wrong when after the fact said citixenry questions it a bit?
JamesMorrison wrote:Sadly I don't think the concept of paradigm shift as regards American/Middle Eastern interaction could be grasped by most of the American public, not because they are of low intelligence but because Americans do not want to take the time to educate themselves about the subject matter.
This is the ole, "if they would educate themselves they'd agree" trick. It's a bit presumptuous to assume that those who do not see things your way do not care to educate themselves.
I'm with you in that most Americans do not (as is the case in any country) but there are plenty of people who are well informed and though the shift in geopolitical reality to be foolhardy.
JamesMorrison wrote:If the U.S. administration had just come out and cited regime change in Iraq and tried to explain this paradigm change and its reasons for such a policy in the Middle East, American eyes would start to glaze over but not before cries of "Imperialism" and "Blood for Oil" would begin to be heard and hijack the debate. Simpler seems better.
So a pre-emptive invasion should be sugar coeated and falsely marketed?
JamesMorrison wrote:This implies a lack of attention span on the part of Americans. Perhaps the "powers that be" were right in keeping it simple;
Or disingenuous.
JamesMorrison wrote:
Concentrate on the bad dictator willing to use the WMD at his disposal against his own people and his support for terrorism along with his willingness to thumb his nose at the rest of the world. Saddam and Iraq were a perfect fit to initiate the U.S.'s new policy towards international hooligans. Saddam didn't have a chance.
I personally think the "new policy" to be one of the worst lines of thinking in American History. That you think its merits are self evident and that it should be sold any way that the public can swallow it is sad.
JamesMorrison wrote:
One thing is certain. The Middle East has never seen raw American power before.
And hopefully won't have to with much frequency, despite those who desire that our contry flex it's muscles with disregard to sovereignty.
JamesMorrison wrote:
Various sources there may denounce and defame but they are surely "amazed about what they observed just by watching". They see a well respected Arab dictator for almost 23 years with all kinds of weaponry and an army of over half a million men suddenly reduced, within a little more than a fortnight, to hiding somewhere in a Baghdadi basement.
Ahh the delusion of shock and awe. Actually reading newspapers would show you that they mourned, despite the imagery of the cheering Iraqis.
They were not awed so much as humiliated in many of their eyes.
This reaction was quite prevalent.
JamesMorrison wrote:Formerly American power was viewed only when used sparingly to uphold monarchal, corrupt, and repressive governments in the region such as Iran, Iraq, and more recently Saudi Arabia. Can one really feign surprise when the Arab street gets pissed off at us?
Not at all, we have people like you who think it's a good idea for them to behold our power at their expense.
JamesMorrison wrote:
In addition, America's almost pharmacological dependence on oil has allowed countries such as Saudi Arabia to insert the ring of Middle Eastern oil in our nose and lead us around like a castrated bull. This while they use the money we pay them for their oil to donate to "charities" that end up conveying their beneficiaries into NYC skyscrapers at 600 mph on our own aircraft. They then rub salt into the fresh collective wound by offering a $10 million check to the Mayor of NYC who nobly refused it. We should no longer allow these governments to deflect their own citizens' anger about their lack of self-determination towards the U.S. and Israel as perceived causative agents of misery of their own making.
When you are done milking 9/11 I'll agree with you in that propping up monarchies is a bad idea.
JamesMorrison wrote:Perhaps this new policy towards the Middle East has already produced results. When it was demanded of Syria to turn over certain individuals we got them... and not a diplomatic song and dance.
You conveniently neglect the fact that this was the case before the war. Since 9/11.
JamesMorrison wrote:Good signs, but we have a way to go. We broke Iraq and it is now our responsibility. For whatever reason, this administration miscalculated. They thought they could just decapitate Iraq's regime, plug in their own people at the top, and sail on to calmer seas. Instead everything collapsed. We then gave in to our fear of being called "occupiers" by inserting a "Captain Kangaroo" head administrator who then moused around the government buildings and potential Saddam wannabes like a small mammal scurrying in between dinosaurs. We should have put in MacArthur-like Tommy Franks to break some heads, establish an ideological beachhead, and set up law and order and if the mullahs didn't like it they could get outta Dodge. Sound harsh? These suggestions come from many Iraqi citizens on the ground. Their biggest complaint after Saddam fell was that there essentially was no one responsible for law and order; some even said they were beginning to long for the good old days!
You distort Iraqi wishes incredibly. Iraqi's wished for us to fix the basic things we broke. Iraqis wished that we would prevent lawlessness. But the most common Iraqi request was to leave soon.
Not "put in MacArthur-like Tommy Franks to break some heads, establish an ideological beachhead".
JamesMorrison wrote: Radical Islamic Fundamentalism is just another variant of Ku Klux Klanism with different headgear and more prayers. It is vile not only because it preaches hatred and intolerance but does so to little children and robs them of the opportunity to think for themselves.
Amen.
JamesMorrison wrote:Bremer feels, as I, that stability in Iraq is more important right now then is democracy.
Amen.
JamesMorrison wrote:We should pour money and manpower into Iraq. This civil administrative blitz should be overwhelming.
I agree (just for variety from Amen).
JamesMorrison wrote:When we get this right the other nations in the area will take notice, the people and their repressive regimes will come to a greater "understanding". Iraq could very well be the tipping point we need in this area but it needs Law and Order, economic viability, free press and electronic media (sans intolerance), and libertarian democracy (not just free elections) in that order. It's important to get this right.
Agree again.
JamesMorrison wrote:It is probably more important than the Allies defeating Hitler, but also much more difficult.
I disagree.
JamesMorrison wrote: If the people of these nations are allowed to pursue happiness thru liberty resulting in the acquisition of property and wealth and given a fair chance to obtain these, such Godzilla-like scenes we all witnessed on 9-11 will cease.
Cease? I'd not have used that word.
JamesMorrison wrote: Watching the French Foreign Minister De Villepin's obstructionist shuttle diplomacy, which found him scampering between Sub-Saharan Third-World African nations, was extremely distasteful to me.
I wish more would have done it. The ideals you have (power projection, imperialism) are far more distasteful to me than a man trying to win support for his.
JamesMorrison wrote:This was totally in contrast to the U.S. magnanimously allowing the French General DeGaul to march into Paris after its fall to the Americans. This is the DeGaul who never actually led any French Troops into battle (let alone a campaign) against the Germans occupying France.
Milk it baby!
JamesMorrison wrote:Russia is even more pitiful than France. Still longing for relevance as a world power Mother Russia saw her chance for payback to the U.S. for dismantling the Anti-Ballistic treaty and took it. This is the nation so poor that during its celebration of St Petersburg 300th anniversary it put up fences and bill boards to hide slums and deteriorating buildings. The term Potemkin village springs to mind. This is the former socialistic state that could only dream of that socialism we find in the western states of France and Germany today. The U.S.S.R. never seemed to understand that somebody has to pay for lunch. Russia, now relying on what they feel are past "Glories", doesn't seem to realize that you cannot just announce you are a world power.
You seem to take great pleasure in the misery of nations whose crime is to disagree that the US should tread where it desires.
JamesMorrison wrote:
Saudi Arabia? Sorry, never was a true ally, see above. Again, this state along with Iran, Syria, et al must be shown the error of its ways.
It's an odd mentality that reduces nations of the world to children who need a spanking. Yet you wonder why they oppose our plan.
JamesMorrison wrote:China? It is at least an enigma wrapped in a mystery and certainly puzzling to me. We share no common interests and no common civilization. Might be useful in the DPRK thing, but only if it feels it has a dog in that fight. Current signs are hopeful, although. We don't need a Japan in search of nukes or more reactors subject to pilfering.
Of all the nations Japan is the nation I would be the most comfortable about having nukes. Good point about the pilfering though. I have a bone to pick with this but it's not related.
JamesMorrison wrote:Turkey is spent as an ally. I won't even attempt to explain the extortion attempt.
When you open the chequebook for chequebook diplomacy don't expect the guy who has a lot to lose to ask for a little.
JamesMorrison wrote:
Lastly, and perhaps, most telling will be the Israeli/Palestinian question. Will it be resolved to the satisfaction of both sides? Let's hope not. Neither side feels satisfied with a good compromise. I had tried to start a number of threads on this shortly before and after the start of U.S./Iraqi hostilities broke out but the timing seemed wrong.
Please do, I suspect I'd be more interested in hearning your thoughts on that than your praise of US agressive policy.
JamesMorrison wrote:
The main source of my hope concerning this conflict is not very substantial but perhaps relevant to recent events. One may not like George Bush his morals his politics or economics or his aversion to sophisticated oratory, but you have to admit when he manages to focus on a problem its like a laser beam, all energy comes to bear. It is like he is some sort of savant. If he is able to concentrate long enough and bring the full weight of American pressure to bear perhaps we can make headway on this problem.
I have no problem with Bush except for the part that you praise him for. I could care less about his party his speech or anything. I detest how he takes a simplitic (and often wrong IMO) view of worldwide problems and obsesses with a particular solution.
JamesMorrison wrote:Ariel Sharon's latest statement to his cabinet is encouraging but the Israelis would be well advised to aggressively pursue this peace initiative with vigor. Currently, demographics favor Israelis (52%) while Palestinians (48%) are the minority. By 2007 these figures will have been reversed. What happens if the PLO changes its tactics and simply asks for one-person one-vote?
They should have done the Ghandi thing long ago. If they couldn't figure that out I doubt they'll figure the next easy way out.
JamesMorrison wrote:
At that time how successful will hard line American proponents of Israel and Israelis themselves be in arguing against self-determination and universal suffrage for all residing in the area? Remember South Africa's apartheid? Of course the Israelis could always revert to former measures and increase its IDF and buy more weapons from...who?
Now I'm interested. I really do want to hear you talk mideast.
It's a pity I can find so little in way of common ground for your support for the New American Century.
I know of lots of places that I want to see more US soldiers but the NAC is something I consider... let's just say very bad lest I start to paint the world in blacks and whites.