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The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 07:02 pm
JM, are you the über-knower, Daniel Schorr, in disguise? I have comments about your disquisition but yours is lengthy and I am late. There are night-owls here who will parse each point.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 07:19 pm
You know, JM, (yawn...) setanta has a point or two. One of the items on your discourse that I most disagree with is your statement that anti-war people are now taking off on the administration for not having provided proof of the weapons that they thought were the issue and we Ghandistis did not. As hopeful as we had been that diplomacy would prevail -- or even be taken seriously -- we still hoped and hoped (I know I did) that there would be some justification for my country having attacked Iraq. I wanted those weapons to be there as much or more than the neo-cons. So I feel doubly betrayed. I feel no triumph at their lack. I feel doubly duped. And I find no joy in the embarrassment of whoever ramped up the intelligence to justify the war. Call it a mistake, call it confused, call it slanted, call it just plain incompetence. I am too angry to look at what my country has done.

There were three things: the non-existent weapons, the terrorist fallacy, and the regime change. Please. You, JM, have pointed it out perfectly. We have decided that we will remake the world in our own image. Your points are so scary, and so true.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 07:31 pm
JamesMorrison wrote:
Much is being made by those opposed to the war in Iraq about WMD. Those in that camp, in their pre-war arguments, seemed prone to relegate Saddam's possession and proven use of WMD to the realm of unimportance when qualifying reasons justifying military action. This same group now inversely elevates these weapons to a casus belli when arguing the importance that the U.S. finds WMD to validate its cause for the War.


Not true. Consider this: While I am among those who did not think the "threat" of WMDs were justification for the war I plainly recognize that it WAS touted as a casus belli. It was the only of the myriad reasons for invading Iraq that gave anything remotely like a mandate.

The attention drawn to the lack of WMDs thus far and the overstated case made to go to war does not mean that those who opposed suddeny think it's a casus belli. It means that what was touted as a certainty and an urgent need for war turned out to be less certain and less urgent than previously indicated.

Incidentally I think this is a case of the pot calling the cottonball black because if any side can be accused of a dramatic reversal in emphasis it is the war camp who spoke of mushroom clouds looming, claimed that the WMDs gave a legal mandate for war and who now try to make the most of the liberation of the Iraqi people (a good thing) when WMDs were the stated reason (or at least the primary reason) that we went to war.

JamesMorrison wrote:
Which shall it be? Either WMD are important or they are not.


I ask the pro-war camp the same thing, now that it seems obvious that the smoking gun would not have been a mushroom cloud why the reversal?

JamesMorrison wrote:
It is, of course, a moot point, especially now that we see statements implying that even if these weapons are found they will be dismissed as part of an American conspiracy involving salting of WMD sites. I guess we will have to institute body cavity searches of those inspecting those sites before they begin.


Actually simply allowing international observers (read UN inspectors) to tag along would help quash this except in the most fertile of minds.

JamesMorrison wrote:
Conspiracy theories are always useful in such cases because lack of actual proof is viewed, by proponents, as excellent proof of how pernicious and extensive the conspiracy actually is.


Kinda like the Iraq/Al Quaeda connection.

JamesMorrison wrote:
Apparently, America now must demonstrate, post war, what Saddam was supposed to but did not in order to prevent a war: a valid chain of evidence. The fact that Saddam admitted to having WMD (as well as SCUDS etc.) and promised to destroy them as part of the deal for a cease fire in 1991 also seems to get lost in the shuffle for some reason.


The reason, for me, is that the US made it quite plain, again to me, that disarmament would not have prevented the war despite it being touted as the goal.

Powell said that a disarmed Iraq would be a regime change but talk like that was quickly altered.

JamesMorrison wrote:
An administration that is perceived as crying, "Wolf!" to not only its citizens but also its allies is one without creditability. This is only more ammunition to its critics and enemies and does the U.S. no favors in regards to future international engagements.


James,

The credibility has been questioned abroad for some time. I personally have had bones to pick about the way in which reports of shaky value were being trumpeted.

Let's do it this way. I bet we can agree that there was not any real solid evidence tying Saddam to personal involvement in the 9/11 attacks.

Yet a large portion of the American Public believed this. And IMO it is due to some creative intel management.

JamesMorrison wrote:
What is clear to me is that the "powers that be" felt that their real reason for going to war would be misunderstood by the American public and understood only too well by the rest of the world. They were probably correct in this assumption. Its safe to say that I am not alone in feeling that Iraq was "ripe" for an ideological regime change, its method of implementation not withstanding.


Earlier you mock the derision by those who claim the US overstated the WMD case yet here you clearly imply that it was misconstrued so as to mislead.

Is this not something that undermines credibility? If you think that the time for war was right but that your compatriots would not have accepted the real reasons for it do you still consider anything to be wrong when after the fact said citixenry questions it a bit?


JamesMorrison wrote:
Sadly I don't think the concept of paradigm shift as regards American/Middle Eastern interaction could be grasped by most of the American public, not because they are of low intelligence but because Americans do not want to take the time to educate themselves about the subject matter.


This is the ole, "if they would educate themselves they'd agree" trick. It's a bit presumptuous to assume that those who do not see things your way do not care to educate themselves.

I'm with you in that most Americans do not (as is the case in any country) but there are plenty of people who are well informed and though the shift in geopolitical reality to be foolhardy.


JamesMorrison wrote:
If the U.S. administration had just come out and cited regime change in Iraq and tried to explain this paradigm change and its reasons for such a policy in the Middle East, American eyes would start to glaze over but not before cries of "Imperialism" and "Blood for Oil" would begin to be heard and hijack the debate. Simpler seems better.


So a pre-emptive invasion should be sugar coeated and falsely marketed?


JamesMorrison wrote:
This implies a lack of attention span on the part of Americans. Perhaps the "powers that be" were right in keeping it simple;


Or disingenuous.

JamesMorrison wrote:

Concentrate on the bad dictator willing to use the WMD at his disposal against his own people and his support for terrorism along with his willingness to thumb his nose at the rest of the world. Saddam and Iraq were a perfect fit to initiate the U.S.'s new policy towards international hooligans. Saddam didn't have a chance.


I personally think the "new policy" to be one of the worst lines of thinking in American History. That you think its merits are self evident and that it should be sold any way that the public can swallow it is sad.

JamesMorrison wrote:

One thing is certain. The Middle East has never seen raw American power before.


And hopefully won't have to with much frequency, despite those who desire that our contry flex it's muscles with disregard to sovereignty.

JamesMorrison wrote:

Various sources there may denounce and defame but they are surely "amazed about what they observed just by watching". They see a well respected Arab dictator for almost 23 years with all kinds of weaponry and an army of over half a million men suddenly reduced, within a little more than a fortnight, to hiding somewhere in a Baghdadi basement.


Ahh the delusion of shock and awe. Actually reading newspapers would show you that they mourned, despite the imagery of the cheering Iraqis.

They were not awed so much as humiliated in many of their eyes.

This reaction was quite prevalent.

JamesMorrison wrote:
Formerly American power was viewed only when used sparingly to uphold monarchal, corrupt, and repressive governments in the region such as Iran, Iraq, and more recently Saudi Arabia. Can one really feign surprise when the Arab street gets pissed off at us?


Not at all, we have people like you who think it's a good idea for them to behold our power at their expense.

JamesMorrison wrote:

In addition, America's almost pharmacological dependence on oil has allowed countries such as Saudi Arabia to insert the ring of Middle Eastern oil in our nose and lead us around like a castrated bull. This while they use the money we pay them for their oil to donate to "charities" that end up conveying their beneficiaries into NYC skyscrapers at 600 mph on our own aircraft. They then rub salt into the fresh collective wound by offering a $10 million check to the Mayor of NYC who nobly refused it. We should no longer allow these governments to deflect their own citizens' anger about their lack of self-determination towards the U.S. and Israel as perceived causative agents of misery of their own making.


When you are done milking 9/11 I'll agree with you in that propping up monarchies is a bad idea.


JamesMorrison wrote:
Perhaps this new policy towards the Middle East has already produced results. When it was demanded of Syria to turn over certain individuals we got them... and not a diplomatic song and dance.


You conveniently neglect the fact that this was the case before the war. Since 9/11.

JamesMorrison wrote:
Good signs, but we have a way to go. We broke Iraq and it is now our responsibility. For whatever reason, this administration miscalculated. They thought they could just decapitate Iraq's regime, plug in their own people at the top, and sail on to calmer seas. Instead everything collapsed. We then gave in to our fear of being called "occupiers" by inserting a "Captain Kangaroo" head administrator who then moused around the government buildings and potential Saddam wannabes like a small mammal scurrying in between dinosaurs. We should have put in MacArthur-like Tommy Franks to break some heads, establish an ideological beachhead, and set up law and order and if the mullahs didn't like it they could get outta Dodge. Sound harsh? These suggestions come from many Iraqi citizens on the ground. Their biggest complaint after Saddam fell was that there essentially was no one responsible for law and order; some even said they were beginning to long for the good old days!


You distort Iraqi wishes incredibly. Iraqi's wished for us to fix the basic things we broke. Iraqis wished that we would prevent lawlessness. But the most common Iraqi request was to leave soon.

Not "put in MacArthur-like Tommy Franks to break some heads, establish an ideological beachhead".


JamesMorrison wrote:
Radical Islamic Fundamentalism is just another variant of Ku Klux Klanism with different headgear and more prayers. It is vile not only because it preaches hatred and intolerance but does so to little children and robs them of the opportunity to think for themselves.


Amen.

JamesMorrison wrote:
Bremer feels, as I, that stability in Iraq is more important right now then is democracy.


Amen.


JamesMorrison wrote:
We should pour money and manpower into Iraq. This civil administrative blitz should be overwhelming.


I agree (just for variety from Amen).


JamesMorrison wrote:
When we get this right the other nations in the area will take notice, the people and their repressive regimes will come to a greater "understanding". Iraq could very well be the tipping point we need in this area but it needs Law and Order, economic viability, free press and electronic media (sans intolerance), and libertarian democracy (not just free elections) in that order. It's important to get this right.


Agree again.

JamesMorrison wrote:
It is probably more important than the Allies defeating Hitler, but also much more difficult.


I disagree.

JamesMorrison wrote:
If the people of these nations are allowed to pursue happiness thru liberty resulting in the acquisition of property and wealth and given a fair chance to obtain these, such Godzilla-like scenes we all witnessed on 9-11 will cease.


Cease? I'd not have used that word.


JamesMorrison wrote:
Watching the French Foreign Minister De Villepin's obstructionist shuttle diplomacy, which found him scampering between Sub-Saharan Third-World African nations, was extremely distasteful to me.


I wish more would have done it. The ideals you have (power projection, imperialism) are far more distasteful to me than a man trying to win support for his.

JamesMorrison wrote:
This was totally in contrast to the U.S. magnanimously allowing the French General DeGaul to march into Paris after its fall to the Americans. This is the DeGaul who never actually led any French Troops into battle (let alone a campaign) against the Germans occupying France.


Milk it baby!

JamesMorrison wrote:
Russia is even more pitiful than France. Still longing for relevance as a world power Mother Russia saw her chance for payback to the U.S. for dismantling the Anti-Ballistic treaty and took it. This is the nation so poor that during its celebration of St Petersburg 300th anniversary it put up fences and bill boards to hide slums and deteriorating buildings. The term Potemkin village springs to mind. This is the former socialistic state that could only dream of that socialism we find in the western states of France and Germany today. The U.S.S.R. never seemed to understand that somebody has to pay for lunch. Russia, now relying on what they feel are past "Glories", doesn't seem to realize that you cannot just announce you are a world power.


You seem to take great pleasure in the misery of nations whose crime is to disagree that the US should tread where it desires.

JamesMorrison wrote:

Saudi Arabia? Sorry, never was a true ally, see above. Again, this state along with Iran, Syria, et al must be shown the error of its ways.


It's an odd mentality that reduces nations of the world to children who need a spanking. Yet you wonder why they oppose our plan.

JamesMorrison wrote:
China? It is at least an enigma wrapped in a mystery and certainly puzzling to me. We share no common interests and no common civilization. Might be useful in the DPRK thing, but only if it feels it has a dog in that fight. Current signs are hopeful, although. We don't need a Japan in search of nukes or more reactors subject to pilfering.


Of all the nations Japan is the nation I would be the most comfortable about having nukes. Good point about the pilfering though. I have a bone to pick with this but it's not related.

JamesMorrison wrote:
Turkey is spent as an ally. I won't even attempt to explain the extortion attempt.


When you open the chequebook for chequebook diplomacy don't expect the guy who has a lot to lose to ask for a little.

JamesMorrison wrote:

Lastly, and perhaps, most telling will be the Israeli/Palestinian question. Will it be resolved to the satisfaction of both sides? Let's hope not. Neither side feels satisfied with a good compromise. I had tried to start a number of threads on this shortly before and after the start of U.S./Iraqi hostilities broke out but the timing seemed wrong.


Please do, I suspect I'd be more interested in hearning your thoughts on that than your praise of US agressive policy.

JamesMorrison wrote:

The main source of my hope concerning this conflict is not very substantial but perhaps relevant to recent events. One may not like George Bush his morals his politics or economics or his aversion to sophisticated oratory, but you have to admit when he manages to focus on a problem its like a laser beam, all energy comes to bear. It is like he is some sort of savant. If he is able to concentrate long enough and bring the full weight of American pressure to bear perhaps we can make headway on this problem.


I have no problem with Bush except for the part that you praise him for. I could care less about his party his speech or anything. I detest how he takes a simplitic (and often wrong IMO) view of worldwide problems and obsesses with a particular solution.

JamesMorrison wrote:
Ariel Sharon's latest statement to his cabinet is encouraging but the Israelis would be well advised to aggressively pursue this peace initiative with vigor. Currently, demographics favor Israelis (52%) while Palestinians (48%) are the minority. By 2007 these figures will have been reversed. What happens if the PLO changes its tactics and simply asks for one-person one-vote?


They should have done the Ghandi thing long ago. If they couldn't figure that out I doubt they'll figure the next easy way out.

JamesMorrison wrote:

At that time how successful will hard line American proponents of Israel and Israelis themselves be in arguing against self-determination and universal suffrage for all residing in the area? Remember South Africa's apartheid? Of course the Israelis could always revert to former measures and increase its IDF and buy more weapons from...who?



Now I'm interested. I really do want to hear you talk mideast.

It's a pity I can find so little in way of common ground for your support for the New American Century.

I know of lots of places that I want to see more US soldiers but the NAC is something I consider... let's just say very bad lest I start to paint the world in blacks and whites.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 07:32 pm
Kara,

I'll parse it again later. This time I just wanna get JM to play.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 08:10 pm
James Morrison,

Thanks for a comprehensive description of the situation. I doubt that it will satisfy those who are focused on the failure to find WMD, to the exclusion of other factors. However it is clear enough that, as a result of our intervention;

The prospects for long-term stability in the Gulf region are much improved;

The potential for a significant breakthrough in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict has at last been achieved;

A shock has been administered to Arab governments that may cause some to recalculate both their internal policies with respect to Islamic fundamentalism and their external relations with the West;

Our dependence on a failing regime in Saudi arabia is lessened;

Our leverage with respect to North Korea and Iran is greatly increased;

A dangerous real or potential source of funds and weapons to terrorist movements has been eliminated;

And a cruel tyrant has been removed from the backs of the Iraqi people.

That is not a bad return for our effort.

It is difficult to conceive that (1) Saddam would knowingly fail to promptly and fully satisfy the UN inspectors if he knew he was free of WMD and in compliance with Security Council resolutions; and (2) that even a "neo-con" U.S. administration would knowingly falsify intelligence and make assertions about WMD that it knew were false and that would inevitably become public knowledge. These absurd contradictions, of course, don't prove anything. It is entirely possible, perhaps even likely, that some administration figures became victims of their own expectations in analysing the intelligence data. If so this is a serious fault.

Deception and dissimulation are fundamental elements of statecraft. We should not become too exorcised over them. President Roosevelt campaigned on a promise to stay out of WWII in 1940, even as he conspired with Churchill to get us in the fight and even as he ordered U.S. Naval vessels to attack German submarines on sight in the Atlantic.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 08:21 pm
georgeob1 wrote:

Thanks for a comprehensive description of the situation. I doubt that it will satisfy those who are focused on the failure to find WMD, to the exclusion of other factors. However it is clear enough that, as a result of our intervention;


Focus on WMDs does not have to indicate an exclusion of other factors. It can simply be indicative of a low opinion of the merit of the other factors and the opinion that WMDs were the only long shot at a mandate for war.

georgeob1 wrote:
The prospects for long-term stability in the Gulf region are much improved;


Funny thing is most who will enjoy the new stability didn't think it was needed.

georgeob1 wrote:

The potential for a significant breakthrough in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict has at last been achieved;


The potential was always there. The only thing a breakthrough in the mideast owes to the war is that it is viewed as something positive we could do to counter the negative opinions the war generated.

Of course, we could have done it without the war, it's just that now is a good time to counter a bad image.

georgeob1 wrote:

Our leverage with respect to North Korea and Iran is greatly increased;


It's the same as it's always been. Give em money to appease them. Sign a non-agression treaty to do so for longer.

Much is made about how the war got them talking but it neglects the fact that they were talking long before this administration and that the administration decided to stop.

georgeob1 wrote:
A dangerous real or potential source of funds and weapons to terrorist movements has been eliminated;


Every nation on earth fits that description. That's why these kinds of arguments are frightening.

georgeob1 wrote:
And a cruel tyrant has been removed from the backs of the Iraqi people.


Amen

georgeob1 wrote:

That is not a bad return for our effort.


As you know, I disagree. No need to explain why unless new points are raised.


georgeob1 wrote:
It is difficult to conceive that (1) Saddam would knowingly fail to promptly and fully satisfy the UN inspectors if he knew he was free of WMD and in compliance with Security Council resolutions;


Not at all. He knew that the war was not contingient on his cooperation.

georgeob1 wrote:
(2) that even a "neo-con" U.S. administration would knowingly falsify intelligence and make assertions about WMD that it knew were false and that would inevitably become public knowledge.


No need to deliberately falsify, they saw what they wanted to see. Many times they were wrong.

georgeob1 wrote:
These absurd contradictions, of course, don't prove anything. It is entirely possible, perhaps even likely, that some administration figures became victims of their own expectations in analysing the intelligence data. If so this is a serious fault.


That's what I suspect has happened a few times.

georgeob1 wrote:

Deception and dissimulation are fundamental elements of statecraft.


Agreed.

georgeob1 wrote:
We should not become too exorcised over them.


Agreed. Thing is, we are nowhere near "too" yet (IMO of course).
0 Replies
 
Eva
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 10:46 pm
Perhaps Colin Powell has future political aspirations after all?

Article cut & pasted below. Here's the link: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030531/wl_mideast_afp/us_iraq_powell_030531004225

Powell was under pressure to use shaky intelligence on Iraq:
report Fri May 30, 8:42 PM ET

WASHINGTON (AFP) - US Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) was under persistent pressure from the Pentagon (news - web sites) and White House to include questionable intelligence in his report on Iraq (news - web sites)'s weapons of mass destruction he delivered at the United Nations (news - web sites) last February, a US weekly reported.

US News and World Report magazine said the first draft of the speech was prepared for Powell by Vice President Richard Cheney's chief of staff, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, in late January.

According to the report, the draft contained such questionable material that Powell lost his temper, throwing several pages in the air and declaring, "I'm not reading this. This is bullshit."

Cheney's aides wanted Powell to include in his presentation information that Iraq has purchased computer software that would allow it to plan an attack on the United States, an allegation that was not supported by the CIA (news - web sites), US News reported.

The White House also pressed Powell to include charges that the suspected leader of the September 11 hijackers, Mohammed Atta, had met in Prague with an Iraqi intelligence officer prior to the attacks, despite a refusal by US and European intelligence agencies to confirm the meeting, the magazine said.

The pressure forced Powell to appoint his own review team that met several times with Central Intelligence Agency (news - web sites) Director George Tenet and national security adviser Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites) to prepare the speech, in which the secretary of state accused Iraq of hiding tonnes of biological and chemical weapons.

US News also said that the Defense Intelligence Agency had issued a classified assessment of Iraq's chemical weapons program last September, arguing that "there is no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing and stockpiling chemical weapons."

However, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress shortly after that that the Iraqi "regime has amassed large, clandestine stockpiles of chemical weapons, including VX, sarin, cyclosarin, and mustard gas," according to the report.
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 11:37 pm
Well, craven, I think that "milking the 9/11" has to be repeated at times. It was the prop used many times, and yet, who committed the atrocity of 9/11? Iraq was in our sights for a long time, and when george said he hit the trifecta, he was speaking his mind. And if raw American power is perceived of as going in with thousands in a first rate army to defeat, in a shooting war, far fewer who comprised a fifth rate army, that is one not admirable part of a power. Particularly when we didn't go after the country of origin of those who did the murdering. And that of course is a large part of the problem. We needed a valid excuse to do this, and finally settled on WMD. And now that we can't find them, despite having claimed the contrary, we are shocked, amazed, aghast at how we are regarded.

The disarmament part is also something a little strange. All Iraqi citizens are allowed to keep assault weapons, and to carry others. Exactly who did we disarm?

And why aren't we regarded as liberators? Wasn't that also one of the claims? So far as change goes - for that we shall have to wait and see. So far there doesn't seem to be much.

The triumphant, victorious attitude that was expected as an aftermath to this incursion is changing into a defensive position. Just the fact that the US and Great Britain are called upon to defend positions they don't seem to have well in hand suggests something wrong. They do not argue from strong, positive stands. Instead, they are having to explain and produce results. In this brave new world of ours, it appears that world opinion does matter, and can affect many parts of how a country survives. So many in the Bush admin are remnants of the Reagan cold-war era, and that is how they think. Not necessarily in terms of Russia, but in how the world divided and thought back then.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 05:41 am
a
Think Tenet will take the hit?


CIA reviews pre-war WMD intelligence
04/06/2003 - 8:40:04 am

The CIA is reviewing a top secret intelligence report to decide whether Washington miscalculated the extent of the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's weapons programmes, it emerged today.

The review comes as US President George Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair come under increasing pressure to explain why no banned weapons have been found by coalition forces in Iraq.

The American report in question concluded that Baghdad had chemical and biological weapons and was seeking to reconstitute its nuclear programme, The New York Times said.

It was seen by Bush, and provided the White House with its last major overview of the status of Iraq's programme to develop weapons of mass destruction before the start of the war.

The document, called a national intelligence estimate, was issued last October, the newspaper said.

CIA Director George Tenet has brought in a small team of retired agency analysts to study it and other intelligence work produced before the war.

Separately, the CIA is giving politicians the underlying documents used by analysts to prepare the national estimate, just as Congress and the Senate prepare for their own reviews of the pre-war intelligence, the Times said.

Both US Secretary of State Colin Powell and Tenet have been forced in recent days to defend their handling of intelligence in the months before the war.

Tenet has denied the Iraq intelligence was warped in order to satisfy the Bush administration's desire to find evidence to support its policies.

"The integrity of our process was maintained throughout, and any suggestion to the contrary is simply wrong," he said.

It is those suggestions that will come under scrutiny from the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Armed Services Committee.

The House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence is also planning its own examination, the newspaper said.

In a May 22 letter, the leaders of the House panel asked Tenet to answer a series of questions including whether the "sources and methods that contributed to the community's analysis on the presence and amount of WMD (weapons of mass destruction) in Iraq were of sufficient quality and quantity to provide sufficient accuracy."
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 06:21 am
Mamajuana is right: "The triumphant, victorious attitude that was expected as an aftermath to this incursion is changing into a defensive position. Just the fact that the US and Great Britain are called upon to defend positions they don't seem to have well in hand suggests something wrong. They do not argue from strong, positive stands. Instead, they are having to explain and produce results." The change to a defensive attitude -- body language, written language, and official statements -- is quite remarkable. One thing which helps drive forward the serious questions about the administration is not so much its antiquated Cold War style policies (the opposition has been almost frustratingly tolerant in that respect) but its arrogance and secrecy. Those two classic flaws, more than the nationalism, have fueled much of the opposition to Bush. American supernationalism and imperialism will have to be checked sooner or later, and the ignorance and provincialism that make them possible dealt with.

Serious thunderstorms have been boiling through here for the past 48 hours blitzing AM radio, but I heard maybe five minutes of Bill O'Riley last night while waiting for the news. He regards himself as a well-travelled man, evidently, and to make a point about something or other, burbled off a list of continents and regions he's graced with his presence recently -- "Africa, parts of the Middle East, Asia, Central America, South America..." and with each he spat out an epithet reflecting his utter disgust with all those ugly, inhospitable places where no decent person would want to live. He may not be an utterly typical American, but he represents far too many.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 06:43 am
tartarin, I am glad I missed hearing Bill O'Reilly, GWB's handmaiden.

Tom Friedman's column today is worth reading. He is squirming himself back into the good graces of the Whatever-the-reasons-were, the-outcome-will justify-the-war Group. He is right about one thing: We attacked Iraq because we could.
0 Replies
 
the prince
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 06:47 am
Dunno abt yr president, but our prime minister is in deep (pardon my french) **** ...

Blair Under Fire

Abt time too.....
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 07:00 am
a
CSPAN2 ..... BRIT HOUSE COMMONS .... WMD ....... ONGOING
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 07:00 am
And besides "rough states" we no have "rough elements in the secrte services" [yes, MI5 was formerly known as the Royal Society of Babysitters].
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 07:21 am
Tartarin wrote:
Mamajuana is right: "The triumphant, victorious attitude that was expected as an aftermath to this incursion is changing into a defensive position.


Tartarin, Mamajuana,

You should consider the possibility that the defensive crouch to which you refer is seen only by the administrations political critics.

Many others are in much more defensive positions that promise benefits to us and the world.

Arab states are endorsing public statements denouncing terrorism directed at Israel and are cooperating in the roadmap process. Israel is responding to the first ever clear demands from the United State that she withdraw from the settlements in the West Bank. North Korea has agreed to multilateral talks with her regional neighbors, including China, which for the first time has acknowledged her interests (if not responsibilities) in the matter. Japan has made its security concerns clear enough to get the serious attention of China. South Korea is beginning to shed its delusions concerning its own responsibilities. The fundamentalist wing of the Iranian government is increasingly in its own defensive crouch with respect to its own internal opposition which is motivated by a desire for greater political freedom and ,in the international community, with respect to its weapons development and support for terrorism. The Saudi government is being made to face the contradictions between its wealth, autocratic rule and its support for Whabbi Islamic fanaticism.

All of this is directly tracable to our firm policy with respect to Iraq,
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 07:42 am
That would be great, Georgeob -- Let's see how it plays out.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 07:50 am
I think Tom Paine has one of the better and more reliable websites. I didn't know they had a blog too -- did you? It's more pop-sizzle, and full of goodies: http://www.tompaine.com/blog.cfm/ID/7944
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 09:05 am
Quote thingy on my machine too slow

"Thank god for the British"

Tar Tartarin, tar very much. And thank God for the Great American Empire, without which we would have to find something else to complain about.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 09:10 am
We aim to please, Boss . . .
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 09:14 am
This from Cursor.org (sent to me by a friend. I had not heard of the site.)

Media Patrol
A Guardian report of a meeting between Jack Straw and Colin Powell at the Waldorf hotel before Powell's U.N. presentation on Iraq, is getting almost no play in the U.S. media. It cites leaked transcripts of the meeting -- "being circulated in Nato diplomatic circles" -- in which Powell tells Straw that he was "apprehensive" about the intelligence and hoped the facts, when they came out, would not "explode in their faces.
0 Replies
 
 

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