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The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 04:16 am
Walter, CI, Set ...... time for George to update his resume...... Wink

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/04/23_resume.html
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 05:09 am
j
too long to draw
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 07:21 am
I think this sums it up pretty well.

Quote:
Unanswered question: Where are Iraq's WMD?
Commentary by Kathleen Parker
June 02, 2003

So where are those weapons of mass destruction?

Anyone who went on record in support of the war has been asked that question a hundred or so times in recent weeks. President Bush's opponents, it seems, won't be satisfied until Geraldo is standing astride 5,000 drums of liquid anthrax in front of a nuclear silo. Wouldn't that be lovely?

I confess to disappointment that there isn't some clearer evidence of WMD. Certainly those of us who wandered out onto the pro-war limb believed in the case presented by Secretary of State Colin Powell. We believed that Saddam Hussein needed to be ousted for all the right reasons, including his clear commitment to the development of WMD.

And it was a clear commitment. Saddam had developed such weapons in the past and used them against Iran as well as Iraqi Kurds. He failed to produce evidence that he had destroyed vast quantities of biological and chemical weapons. And he did nothing to convince the "international community" that he had rid his country of all vestiges of WMD.

Still, the question that won't go away chaps at the conscience of any thinking person: So where are they?

The bad news is that we may never find them, according to military and intelligence people I've talked to. Does that mean WMD were never there? No. Does it mean we were wrong? No.

The truth is, we don't know where the weapons are at the moment, other than the two mobile bio labs, but a number of plausible theories could help explain why not. The most obvious explanation is that Saddam simply destroyed the weapons or shipped them elsewhere. He may have ordered his men to destroy them in the vast Iraqi desert and then killed them as the only witnesses.

Or he may have dispersed and concealed various elements of his WMD production capacity, figuring he could regroup after the war.

The two mobile labs recently investigated were thoroughly scrubbed down. Although a variety of inspectors have not been able to say with certitude what the labs were used for, the consensus is that they make sense for no other purpose than creation of biological weapons. Why carefully scrub a lab unless you're trying to hide something?

The fact that the weapons were never used against our troops may suggest that Saddam hoped that by destroying the bulk of his WMD stocks and dispersing or concealing his WMD production capacity, he could prevent indictment by U.N. inspectors.

Then he could reliably count on France, Germany and Russia to forestall war because of a lack of credible evidence of the existence of WMD. Once the pesky inspectors left, all he needed to do was obtain the necessary chemicals and materiel for production of WMD.

That's the theory of Peter Brookes, senior fellow for National Security Affairs and Director of the Asian Studies Center at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank. It makes as much sense as anything else, though admittedly it's difficult to read the mind of a maniac. Saddam's, that is.

Whatever the case, we might have been wiser never to entertain hopes of a smoking gun. We entered Iraq with Oz-like expectations, wide-eyed in search of a yellow-brick road lined with happy Iraqis pointing to the brightly colored arrows: "Weapons of Mass Destruction Here!" The WMD weren't likely to be neatly stacked and labeled in warehouses along Frontage Road.

Nevertheless, we still need closure and an answer to the question: Where are they? The fact of their absence in Iraq could predict a scarier scenario still. If they weren't destroyed, they're somewhere else potentially far more dangerous to us now.

0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 07:55 am
Scrat wrote:


I predict that regardless of what the investigation finds, Democrats will attempt to ride this issue for political advantage. If they find that someone lies, they'll be filled with glee, but if they don't, they'll simply feign outrage that they "weren't allowed to get to the bottom of this important question..."

.


The great thing about the Right, of course, is that it never rides issues for political advantage or suffers outrage. Nevvah.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 08:03 am
McGentrix

That is a summation!? Of administration talking points, perhaps.

This is how it is NOT a summation:

1) toss in Geraldo (wearing pachouli oil, better yet)
2) "those of us who 'wandered' into the pro-war limb"... it will be considerably more difficult finding cautious or anti-war commentary from Brooks than finding WOMD in Pennsylvania
3) Again, toss in that Sadaam had developed chemical agents decades previously. Again, omit the happy role Rumsfeld and the CIA played in this.
4) repeat the 'mobile labs' talking point. That is, pretend it's an established fact.
5) repeat the 'scrubbed down' line - prove presence by establishing absense. Ignore that traces of other things were found.
6) make a list of things that might have happened to all the weapons (which Rumsfeld knew the exact locations of) but try to avoid the 'space creatures took them' line - because that one might be needed for something else later.
7) get in another slam at France, Germany and Russia just in case folks haven't got the them bad/us pure thing clear yet
8) special bonus trick ending....show deep concern that the weapons haven't been found because...THAT MEANS THEY ARE NOW SOMEWHERE ELSE!!! MORE DANGER!!!

Good summation
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 08:06 am
mcGentrix

I thought that article by Kathleen Parker was appalling. Was she a failed country and western singer now self styled political commentator?

"We entered Iraq with Oz-like expectations, wide-eyed in search of a yellow-brick road lined with happy Iraqis pointing to the brightly colored arrows: “Weapons of Mass Destruction Here!”"

Not me

I never thought WMD were anything other than the excuse to get into Iraq, not the real driving force for doing so.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 08:10 am
scrat

Happy you got a chuckle. You aren't a bad sort, you are just far too willing to trust people who frankly do not give a **** about you or yours. These guys are not out for your best interests, and you let them off the hook with the ease of a follower.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 08:14 am
"blind" follower
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 08:29 am
blatham wrote:
Good summation


Thanks! It's almost like I wrote it myself.

(I liked the Geraldo reference!)
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 08:33 am
The entire world agreed that Iraq had WMD's before the war or 1441 would never have passed. The U.N. KNEW Iraq had WMD's, so now it is just a matter of finding out what happened to them. No one knows if they were destroyed, hidden, or moved.

I don't understand what the problem is. They are there somewhere and evidence to that will eventually show up. Either that or they have been moved. No one is disagreeing that Iraq had them, right? So where they are is the question.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 09:01 am
"The entire world agreed that Iraq had WMD's before the war or 1441 would never have passed." HUH??

McGentrix -- I listened to every word of those SC hearings and there's just no way you can say the entire world agreed. Many did not agree. Many gave in to the US because the US swore its intelligence -- I think we probaby ought to put "intelligence" in quotes from now on when referring to US intelligence -- showed WMD's. And two or three joined Britain and the US perforce in a very wobby "coalition." What everyone did now was that the US (among other countries) had sold weapons and other useful materials to Iraq in the past; that the UN bio-nuke teams found little if anything; and that the US was going to go in there like it or not, using whatever pretext that came to hand.

The US admin are so "sure" there are WMD's now that they are backing off and emphasizing other reasons for going to war because they realize they're in big trouble.

"So where they are is the question." Yeah, right. You fell for the old trick, McGentrix, of telling people that Jack, down the street, regularly beats his wife, and then suggesting that all the other neighbors demand Jack prove that he ISN'T beating his wife. Old stuff. Learned it in fourth grade; was a useless ruse by fifth grade.

Blatham was the smartest kid by sixth grade, no question about it.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 09:04 am
Sixth grade was but one year preceding my first expulsion.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 09:07 am
I have recently acquired from a reputable source the following items that I now offer for sale to A2K members at very reasonable prices.

1. 10,000 litres fermented anthrax slurry. Can be used for keeping cats off the garden, or makes an excellent compost.
2. 4.234 kgs plutonium Pu239. In handy subcritical size packets. With geiger counter and lead shielding. Weapons grade fissile material isn't just for those boring old nuclear bombs. Use it to power your very own space probe!
3. Two sets of the 'Al Qaida Big Boy' chemistry kits. Suitably lethal for all ages. Contains lots of stainless steel pipes and retorts with instructions on how to make sarin, mustard gas and even VX. You could be the very first religious extremist in your area to own one!
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 09:16 am
You were right, I shouldn't have said the ENTIRE world, as obviously you are part of the world and seem to disagree that Iraq had any WMD's.

Let me ask you one thing though, IF Iraq didn't have any WMD's, why would the UN have drafted resolution 1441?

Maybe you should read it again here.

Quote:
The resolution, number 1441, establishes an enhanced inspection regime for Iraq's disarmament, which will be carried out by the U.N. Monitoring, Verification, and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).

All 15 council members voted for the resolution: permanent members China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States; and non-permanent members Bulgaria, Cameroon, Colombia, Guinea, Ireland, Mauritius, Mexico, Norway, Singapore, and Syria.

The resolution states that Iraq remains in material breach of council resolutions relating to Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait and requires that Baghdad give UNMOVIC and IAEA a complete and accurate declaration of all aspects of its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs and ballistic missiles systems, as well as information on other chemical, biological, and nuclear programs that are supposed to be for civilian purposes, within 30 days.


Quote:
Finally, it warns Iraq that "it will face serious consequences" if it continues to violate its obligations as spelled out in the resolution.


Quote:
Recalling also its resolution 1382 (2001) of 29 November 2001 and its intention to implement it fully,

Recognizing the threat Iraq's noncompliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,

Recalling that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to Resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area,


Quote:
Recognizing the threat Iraq's noncompliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,


Quote:
3. Decides that, in order to begin to comply with its disarmament obligations, in addition to submitting the required biannual declarations, the Government of Iraq shall provide to UNMOVIC, the IAEA, and the Council, not later than 30 days from the date of this resolution, a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programmes to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, and other delivery systems such as unmanned aerial vehicles and dispersal systems designed for use on aircraft, including any holdings and precise locations of such weapons, components, sub-components, stocks of agents, and related material and equipment, the locations and work of its research, development and production facilities, as well as all other chemical, biological, and nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to weapon production or material;

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 09:17 am
Tartar, Some people never realize how the "shell game" is played. c.i.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 09:18 am
Uh Steve, my doctor says I have to have one of those colonoscopy test ...... does that plutonium thingy come with instructions?
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 09:37 am
Tartarin wrote:
Scrat wrote:


I predict that regardless of what the investigation finds, Democrats will attempt to ride this issue for political advantage. If they find that someone lies, they'll be filled with glee, but if they don't, they'll simply feign outrage that they "weren't allowed to get to the bottom of this important question..."

.


The great thing about the Right, of course, is that it never rides issues for political advantage or suffers outrage. Nevvah.

Fair point, Tartarin. Yes, both sides do this. I hope you'll still allow me to decry the practice in this case. I'll be sure to give you a pass on doing so when it's the Republicans' turn. Cool
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 09:43 am
blatham wrote:
Happy you got a chuckle. You aren't a bad sort, you are just far too willing to trust people who frankly do not give a **** about you or yours. These guys are not out for your best interests, and you let them off the hook with the ease of a follower.

Blatham - I think that were you to read my writings with a little less bias of your own, you would find that what I am doing is not letting Bush or conservatives off the hook, but rather I refuse to let sloppy thinkers and obfuscators off the hook.

I understand the desire many here have to find fault in anything and everything their perceived foes do. But when you claim to have "proven" something that you clearly have not, or claim to have "proof" that you refuse to share, or claim that someone said "X" when they record shows that they did not... well, I tend to have a hard time letting you off the hook.

I understand that it is easy to mistake anyone arguing with a Bush hater for a Bush lover, but I'd encourage you to be a little more open minded in your assessment of others here. You don't know the first thing about me. Try to remember that, and our discussions might even lead to something useful.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 09:51 am
McGentrix wrote:
The entire world agreed that Iraq had WMD's before the war or 1441 would never have passed. The U.N. KNEW Iraq had WMD's, so now it is just a matter of finding out what happened to them. No one knows if they were destroyed, hidden, or moved.

I don't understand what the problem is. They are there somewhere and evidence to that will eventually show up. Either that or they have been moved. No one is disagreeing that Iraq had them, right? So where they are is the question.

I think the "problem" lies in the simple, unshakable desire some people have for Bush to be wrong. It disconnects the logical linkage between what we (the world community, the UN, the inspectors) KNEW Saddam had and what he seems now not to have but is not accounted for. I don't think they give this detail much thought, because it does not fit in well with their desires in this issue.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 09:58 am
Here's the latest from the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/03/opinion/03KRUG.html?ex=1055644191&ei=1&en=199ca8e3e4474d8c
It covers more than just this 'war.' c.i.
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