Whil watching cspan I did a rt clk to change resolution and at the bottom of the menu was titv.
It appears that they have online programming, not sure though. I'm checking it out.
Quote:considerations of tactical prudence and combat efficiency determined which sites were secured,
No, Timber, this is not credible. Had not the Ministry of Oil and the Ministry of Defence buildings been well protected, I'd accept your thesis. It is a matter of what was held to be important. And this tells us too much to ignore not merely about this administration but about America as well.
I think it nearly a certainty that if, through some odd but imaginable set of circumstances, Babe Ruth's bat had previously been stolen and held in the National Museum, and this was widely known, the building would have been protected. Or Davy Crockett's coonskin cap.
Timber
Thanks for turning on the lights for those who always look for the dark side.
blatham, I understand your scepticism, and grant that largely such often is warranted. In this particulat instance, military expedience, not politico-cultural concern, steered the event. The functions of the sites secured had nothing to do with cultural, political, or financial signifigance. They were chosen and secured soley for their tactical value as points from which to observe and control The Line of Advance, which they flanked. The Museum and other buildings had no tactical importance. The pragmatics of war allow little room for sensitivity and cultural awareness. It is absurd and totally disingenuous to imply any ulterior motive to The Ground Troops on the scene or to CENTCOM in the matter. The looting in general was something to which insufficent pre-attack attention was paid, and hindsight clearly reveals more could and should have been done. Sorry, partner, I see the attempt to blame it on the US as a monstrous Red Herring. It just ain't there, no matter how well it plays to The Left. The issue of US complicity or foreknowledge is a non-starter, and points up the efforts of those desperately seeking to press an Anti-US agende by manufacturing an incident not supported either by observed happenings or tactical doctrine.
McTag
I quite happy with my concept of reality but I'm curious if you're content with the ocean of deep denial that you and the rest of Europe are swimming in.
IMHO
When the historians debate the invasion of Iraq, the emphasis will be placed on 'why' it was of such importance that we in invade ..... not the minutia of acts committed during.
Timber
Please cease with the looking for excuses on this matter. It is not excuseable. Please listen to the audio interview I linked yesterday. There is everything wrong with this WSJ piece. What he suggests was most valuable is not. Temporary storage vaults were also looted, and the DoD had been previously advised precisely regarding them, and what was now in them. How likely is it, do you think, that this picture of shots coming from the museum reflects anything other than the lamest of cover stories? The building could not have been surrounded, preventing artifacts being taken out? The US military wimps out and drops their assignment because of fire? The Ministries of Oil and Defence were totally without opposition but the museum had a force defending? Jesus, give me a break.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/04/17/international1059EDT0526.DTL
Quote:Experts: Looters had keys to Iraqi antiquity vaults
JOCELYN GECKER, Associated Press Writer
Experts say that what seemed like random looting in Baghdad -- the pillaging of treasures dating back 5,000 years in human history -- was in fact a carefully planned theft, and the stolen artifacts may already be in the system that traffics in stolen artifacts to collectors in Europe, the United States and Japan ...
More inconvenience for the Museum Looting Conspiracists. Their theory is as full of holes as an Iraqi Armored Personnel Carrier.
Gelisgesti wrote:IMHO
When the historians debate the invasion of Iraq, the emphasis will be placed on 'why' it was of such importance that we in invade ..... not the minutia of acts committed during.
Might be that history isn't interested in history anymore in some years, but before that historians are well aware of the possible losses. Especially, since nearly 50% of the founds of the last 80 years, which were magazined there, haven't been catalogized and ascertained yet.
blatham, The Museum commanded no overlook of the tactically sensitive routes area. It was not a factor in the ongoing battle, siezing it offered no tactical advantage. In combat, tactics are what matter. War ain't pretty, but it is driven by logic and expedience. There was neither tactical nor logical expedience to securing the museum at the time. That is a shame, and it is inexcuseable that suitable provision was not made for the protection of the building, but it simply was not a factor in the battleplan. It just didn't matter. That itself is damning, yes, but oversight, not deviousness, was the operative factor. Pray tell me what advantage possibly could have been gained by US sanction of such looting? Clearly, it is illogical to assume there could have been any, and advantage is what tactics are about.
timber
Of course I don't blame it on the ground troops, for god's sake. But how on earth can you speak with such authority on specific tactical matters regarding which buildings needed to be held because of their phsyical location? Franklly, I don't give a **** how this plays to the left, nor am I desperate in seeking and anti-US issue. I have a deep love and curiosity regarding this period of human history and the loss suffered here has hit me as deeply as any event in my lifetime AND IT WAS EASILY EASILY AVOIDABLE BUT IT WASN'T CONSIDERED IMPORTANT.
I know those soldiers aren't gifted in the brain-departement. But the story i read on the BBC website is incredible. Only barbarians dont respect the culture and customs of the land they occupy.
Our correspondent says there was a tense confrontation earlier when an American patrol stumbled into a crowd kneeling outside a mosque.
He says the worshippers surged forward angrily, but the US commander skilfully withdrew his troops and defused the situation.
The troops had entered the area of the mosque to distribute humanitarian aid.
It was the first full Friday prayers since Baghdad fell to US-led forces last week.
final post on this...timber...the DoD had been alerted long ago by many that given war, the museum and other sites would be a certain target for organized artifact theft as well as local looting. The DoD assured the archaeological community that the matter was in hand, and that these locations and their contents would be protected.
How many future Rodins, Monets, Vangoghs and on and on, were stolen by this invasion?
How many Curies, Salks ........ Could there have been a messiah?
Minutia ..... without reason.
My put-it-to-rest post on The Museum: As I've said many times, DoD dropped the ball, but no tactical advantage was offered by securing the site of the Museum. The matter at hand, conducting combat operations, was the sole consideration, and there was no legitimate combat reason to secure The Museum. When involved in combat, Marines tend to be rather fixated and goal-oriented, not much given to allowing for considerations of cultural niceness. Pre-Attack provision SHOULD have been made to protect The Museum. We know that now. The Powers-That-Be failed to plan adequately, as evidenced by their assurances that they felt they had taken proper precautions. Second-guessing is a popular recreation of those beyond the smell of smoke and the sound of active gunfire. Those participating in the live performance give little thought to the mood of the Back Home Audience; they have other, more urgent and pressing matters on their mind.
self determination can be a real kick in the pants when they dont do what you want them to: BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Tens of thousands of protesters demanded on Friday that the United States get out of Iraq (news - web sites), as U.S. troops arrested a fourth wanted aide of Saddam Hussein
The demonstrators poured out of Friday prayers in Baghdad mosques chanting anti-American slogans and calling for an Islamic state to replace Saddam's toppled government.
The protests on the Muslim holy day came as regional states met in Saudi Arabia to discuss a response to the Iraq war.
Timber i totally agree regarding the troops but i totally disagree re the adminstration. If indeed the objective was liberation and the Bush people had been warned back in January about the museum, this was a debacle of unforgivable magnitude.
When the looting first began troops were posted to the museum and then withdrawn, so someone judge that museum to be unimportant, relative to such economic institutions as the Oil Ministry. Also organized looting was exactly what was feared when the DoD was approached about these museums and archives last fall and again this winter. Organized looting is a perennial problem for archaeologists, it could, and was, easily predicted.
There also seems to be a profound lack of understanding of just what it is that archaeologists and other scholars do with this material. A2K is not the place for an introductory course in archaeology. But it should be emphasized that it is not only the loss of the artifacts but the destruction of records such as the card catalogue and other documents, to hide the extent of the looting, that is a major loss. The Baghdad museum is only one of at least four archive that were destroyed including two libraries in Baghdad and a second major museum in Kirkuk. The extent of this tragedy as yet to be fully understood.
Lastly it must be emphasized that we chose to invade Iraq, it was not an imperative thrust upon us by circumstance as was WWII. As we took on this enterprise there was a particular responsibility on our part to protect those institution that had not only significance to the Iraqi's but world wide significance as a record of our common human heritage. We chose to protect the oil and not the artifacts and that more then any statement the President or any other administration official can make speaks to our present values.
