Animals have rights but is it OK to eat them??

Questioner--

Sorry. I don't follow. Harp away.

Er, I rather think the point's been missed. It wasn't overly important anyway. Cheers.

cheers.

Thanks go to the spirit of the wild for providing such healthy, tasty protein, while taking in the great outdoors.

cjhsa--

I realize this may seem like a dumb question, but why do you think killing a rabbit or a deer is any different than killing a human? Or do you?

Different species. We're not at the top of the food chain to eat tofu.

echi!

I do, hard as it may be for you to believe, have a love of animals and I support various wildlife and animal protection projects that have reasonable aims and are run by reasonable people. However, I do not and will not lose sight of the fact that we, as a species, are omniverous predators. I do not go out and hunt for my own food - unless you might care to consider a trip to the mall a hunt - but included in the cost of my meat is an amount for the actual "hunter" (farmer, abattoir, whatever).

I do not lose any sleep over this process.

If you want me to feel guilt about the "furry, soft, cosy, darling little Bambi" aspect of it all - think again. Did you ever read (or see the film) The Yearling? The little boy and his orphaned pet, the deer. All sweet and lovely. And then the deer starts doing what is totally natural - eating the tenderest, tastiest food it can find, which happens to be the very young farm crops of the boy's family and neighbours. Their food supply for the year gone in a few days. The obvious, heart-breaking solution.

We can see a film like "Babe" and swear off pork forever. So everyone starts keeping pigs as pets. Cute! But keeping pigs is hard work, the fad wears off and suddenly there are neglected and ill-treated pigs left, right and centre.

The point of the above is that there is nothing gained by asking "but how do you FEEL about killing animals for food".

Perhaps you should concentrate more on the "how do you FEEL about killing animals other than for food or self-defence?" Then you have my vote.

lezzles--

I do not believe you love animals, for obvious reasons.

I do not advocate keeping wild animals as pets, nor do I support domestication, generally.

I do not WANT you to feel guilt for anything. Whenever I have killed an animal, on purpose, I did not feel good about it. And I am sure that no one feels good about it. I suppose that's my real point, here.

As for you being an "omnivorous predator", that's a personal decision. Go for it.

There are some people that think chicken is just something you buy at Safeway. There are some that agonize over the deaths of animals, and feel bad. There are others who hunt or simply meat without it becoming a moral dilemma.

I have killed animals, and I can tell you how I feel. I don't feel "oh what a rush" or " this is horrible". I felt - "i am capable of killing". So are you, echi. You kill just by breathing. Think about it. No human being walks this planet without leaving a mark.

I feel like the moral indignation (not specificially from you) deserves to be pointed at those who are truly uncaring of their impact on life. Get mad at the people who are inflicting the most damage.

Sure, when I was a kid, I was horrified watching my loved ones butcher up an animal. I hated that some of them hunted. It's difficult to see any being die. I hated to see anything die. That's normal. I care about life - all life. However; there is a way to respect life and yet still eat meat. There is. I have searched my soul on this one.

I think it is important to remember that hunting and eating animals is a deep part of human history. We evolved from meat. Perhaps a time will come when meat will disappear from our tables, and be replaced, but the history will never go away. In the past, people had more reasons to respect the animals they hunted. Most folks hunt their meat anymore, most people barely know where the meat has come from. I feel that is where the true moral problems lie - very complicated. Animals as a product in a massive slaughter house. Animals granted no life of their own.

Thanks for listening. I feel very strongly about this.
p.s. The Yearling......
I loathed that book! but it worked for your point

true. not just breathing...we use pest control and do other thousand things that "actively* contribute to killing other animals. flushd's post makes 100% sense.It's quite hypocritical to claim that we can try and live without causing hurt to animals.

But i get your point echi, when i see a friend eating chicken i cant help thinking of the killing of that chicken. That feeling stops me from ever eating it. However, i do kill (or contribute to killing) animals in other ways...I remain a vegetarian but accept that it's natural to eat animals and that it's not immoral...

As I see it, killing and eating (indeed, killing in order to eat) animals is neither good nor bad in any absolute sense; it's just natural and virtually inevitable. One might say it's good for us and bad for the animals, but I don't even think they have opinions on the matter. Nature is indifferent. We have "moral" restrictions about killing other humans--and, historically and anthropologically that has applied mainly to our neighbors, not to "others" or "strangers". Moreover, our moral restrictions against homicide are hedged about by exceptions, e.g., it's alright to kill in war and in capital punishment and in defense of life and, sometimes, property.

The first options in the poll is
Sure, God put animals on the earth for us to eat.

Why not inclulde the following option?
Sure, God put humans on the earth for animals to eat.

flushd--

I am not mad at anyone for eating meat. I don't claim any moral superiority. All I am saying is that I do not feel good about it when I intentionally kill animals, so I don't do it. How could anyone feel good about it?

Who feels good? I try not to think of the klling of the steer whose filet mignon I'm consuming.

Everyone here needs to watch more of the Outdoor Living Network.

Listen to Unka' Ted!

Remember, the person who hires the assasin is just as guilty!

I don't know, JLN, I think any animal that's about to be eaten (or is in the process) does have a pretty strong opinion on the matter. What evidence might suggest otherwise?

I don't think they have any opinions, any abstract conceptual perspectives on hypothetical future possibilities. Animals DO flee (because of instinctual dispositions) upon detecting certain kinds of movements of predators. But they do not make consciously devised plans to avoid capture. Birds do set off a chirping alarm, but this is instinctive not the conscious act of an individual "thinking" bird.
I do believe, and hope it's true, that when a zebra is brought down by a lion, there is a strong flood of analgesic endorphins into its circulatory system which helps to explain its strange passivity as it is being killed. Does anyone have information on that phenomenon?

JLN--

Before I stopped eating animals I did consider the possibility that they might not even be conscious beings. Or, at least, that they might not be self-conscious... that they might not form emotional attachments, or experience loss, etc. I never found much to support my ideas.
I think there is some evidence that animals can think in the abstract (I will try to find that and post it here). Short of any evidence, though, it still seems pretty safe to assume that they do have emotions and form opinions. After all, we know that humans do. Why should other animals be any different?

Yeah, gotcha.

All I can say is that I personally do a lot of things that don't feel real great while I'm doing them. My feelings (and others feelings) are not always the #1 priority in my decision making.

Don't know about animals forming opinions. They definetly want to survive, but I doubt my cat with the pea-sized brain is forming opinions on life. She seems more intent on the immediete moment than myself; less in her head.

I'm not sure about the zebra question either. I would guess that an animal would go into shock much like humans. Maybe the vets 'round these here forums will have a word on that.

If a cat hates you, he will crap in your shoes. I guess that is forming an opinion. Still, he tastes like chicken.