Define God

if it's not too late to get a definition in
it depends on whether god exists or not.

if god doesn't exist:
then "god" is the strive for mankind to become closer to "divine."

if god does exist:
then "god" is the strive for mankind to become closer to "divine."

so what's "divine?"

theists often think in terms of doing what they believe god says makes them better people.

atheists and agnostics often think in terms of doing what they believe makes them better people.

and obviously such a gap could never be bridged, they're far too different. i mean, one has the word "god" in it.

so "god" can also be defined as:

1. the strive in man towards perfection and unity.
2. the thing man trifles about endlessly, thus defeating the whole idea.

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Re: if it's not too late to get a definition in

tinygiraffe wrote:

theists often think in terms of doing what they believe god says makes them better people.

atheists and agnostics often think in terms of doing what they believe makes them better people.

Trying to be a better person is a noble ideal. Unfortunatly the world we live in today, filled with theists, atheists, and agnostics, is still not a very nice place to live. Just the opposite more often than not. Why is that?

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neologist wrote:

I would have thought any anchovy pizza would be deadly; but my wife eats them with impunity.

Go figure.

Fill me in. God ->Pizza? This is hard to digest.

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Quote:

Unfortunatly the world we live in today, filled with theists, atheists, and agnostics, is still not a very nice place to live. Just the opposite more often than not. Why is that?

perhaps i can't say that most of the problems exist because a person or group thinks: "well, i'm right, therefore you must be wrong, so it's all *your* fault..." but i have to say, that's exactly what the problem appears to be. lots of people far too certain that god(or logic) smiles on them and them alone. it/s/he doesn't.

do you honestly believe you're better equipped to choose "the right god" or to see what god wants than everyone else is?

put another way if you prefer, if everyone is equally equipped, what makes you confident that you're more faithful than people that find the divine elsewhere?

for example, you seem (am i wrong about this?) prepared to blame all the world's problems on non-christians... but i may be exaggerating a bit, not intentionally. you also think jews reject your version of things because they're "dull," which to me is a sad way to view the world. i think that kind of thinking is part of the problem, but everyone does it sometimes, not just one group.

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tinygiraffe wrote:

Quote:
Unfortunatly the world we live in today, filled with theists, atheists, and agnostics, is still not a very nice place to live. Just the opposite more often than not. Why is that?

Do you honestly believe you're better equipped to choose "the right god" or to see what god wants than everyone else is?

What I honestly believe is that the Bible indicates what is needed to be equipped to make an informed choice.

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17)

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hankarin wrote:

tinygiraffe wrote:
Quote:
Unfortunatly the world we live in today, filled with theists, atheists, and agnostics, is still not a very nice place to live. Just the opposite more often than not. Why is that?

Do you honestly believe you're better equipped to choose "the right god" or to see what god wants than everyone else is?

What I honestly believe is that the Bible indicates what is needed to be equipped to make an informed choice.

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17)

There is no reason to believe that scripture is a good source for teaching people.

T
K
O

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wait... there ARE reasons... poor reasons.

T
K
O

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Diest TKO wrote:

wait... there ARE reasons... poor reasons.

Unsupported opinions make for poor argument.

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neologist wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
wait... there ARE reasons... poor reasons.
Unsupported opinions make for poor argument.

Ironic...

So what "supported" reasons are there that the bible is the ultimate source for teaching?

T
K
O

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I asked you first. :wink:

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neologist wrote:

I asked you first. :wink:

Fair enough. The Bible is a poor source for education because it hasn't been updated with new information that mankind has acquired. It is factualy inaccurate. The scripture makes claims that cannot be substanciated.

The scriptures inspire fear and offer consequences which have no basis in fact.

Mankind gains nothing from coming from being inheritly sinful.

Lastly, the bible can be used to justify many "non-righteous" things.

See Crusades.
See also The Inqusition
See also The Black Plague
See also The Salem Witch Trials
See also Slavery
See also Equal Rights for Women
See also Sold Absolutions
etc...

Just because I didn't take the time to explain a very supported conclusion, does not mean that I am singing a unsuppoerted opinion. Unless you have the ability to change the past, or worse the ability to rewrite history, the facts remain.

The scripture has been used already as an ultimate source, and when said action has taken place the exactly opposite to the desired result happened.

Now. I'm very interested. Tell me why on earth the bible should be concidered the ultimate source for teaching?

T
K
O

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First of all, the fact that the bible may be misrepresented to justify many wrongs, does not make the bible unreliable. We in the US can scarcely agree on the constitution.

I have heard the 'hasn't been updated' argument before. What is there about 'love God and love your neighbor as yourself' that needs updating?

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neologist wrote:

First of all, the fact that the bible may be misrepresented to justify many wrongs, does not make the bible unreliable.

Actually, it does if you are arguing that the bible is the ultimate source to teach from. It actually does. Tough pill.

neologist wrote:

We in the US can scarcely agree on the constitution.

At least we have a system to amend the constitution. At least we learn from our mistakes in the constitution.

neologist wrote:

I have heard the 'hasn't been updated' argument before. What is there about 'love God and love your neighbor as yourself' that needs updating?

The execution. The practice. The insentive.
K
O

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Diest TKO wrote:

hankarin wrote:
tinygiraffe wrote:
Quote:
Unfortunatly the world we live in today, filled with theists, atheists, and agnostics, is still not a very nice place to live. Just the opposite more often than not. Why is that?

Do you honestly believe you're better equipped to choose "the right god" or to see what god wants than everyone else is?

What I honestly believe is that the Bible indicates what is needed to be equipped to make an informed choice.

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17)

There is no reason to believe that scripture is a good source for teaching people.

T
K
O

Probably the most prominent 21st century viewpoint. What would you like to see people use?

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hankarin wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
hankarin wrote:
tinygiraffe wrote:
Quote:
Unfortunatly the world we live in today, filled with theists, atheists, and agnostics, is still not a very nice place to live. Just the opposite more often than not. Why is that?

Do you honestly believe you're better equipped to choose "the right god" or to see what god wants than everyone else is?

What I honestly believe is that the Bible indicates what is needed to be equipped to make an informed choice.

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17)

There is no reason to believe that scripture is a good source for teaching people.

T
K
O

Probably the most prominent 21st century viewpoint. What would you like to see people use?

Something that all people taylor, test, review, edit, repeat. I don't think that people should be led to a singular source for their well being etc.

T
K
O

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neologist wrote:

First of all, the fact that the bible may be misrepresented to justify many wrongs, does not make the bible unreliable.

Hmmmmm. So, use is not the same as misuse? (Whoda thunk it!) Laughing

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Diest TKO wrote:

hankarin wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
hankarin wrote:
tinygiraffe wrote:
Quote:
Unfortunatly the world we live in today, filled with theists, atheists, and agnostics, is still not a very nice place to live. Just the opposite more often than not. Why is that?

Do you honestly believe you're better equipped to choose "the right god" or to see what god wants than everyone else is?

What I honestly believe is that the Bible indicates what is needed to be equipped to make an informed choice.

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17)

There is no reason to believe that scripture is a good source for teaching people.

T
K
O

Probably the most prominent 21st century viewpoint. What would you like to see people use?

Something that all people taylor, test, review, edit, repeat. I don't think that people should be led to a singular source for their well being etc.

T
K
O

A possibility; but it sounds like it would take a considerable amount of time to get through the process with so many people involved.

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tinygiraffe wrote:

do you honestly believe you're better equipped to choose "the right god" or to see what god wants than everyone else is?

put another way if you prefer, if everyone is equally equipped, what makes you confident that you're more faithful than people that find the divine elsewhere?

for example, you seem (am i wrong about this?) prepared to blame all the world's problems on non-christians... i think that kind of thinking is part of the problem, but everyone does it sometimes, not just one group.

hankarin wrote:

What I honestly believe is that the Bible indicates what is needed to be equipped to make an informed choice.

the jewish people belived that as well, and the "bible" is what leads them to believe you're wrong about jesus.

if many of us read your bible, we find different conclusions than you do.

clearly, there is some component other than the bible involved. god maybe. which brings me back to my original question. do you think the bible alone equips us fully, or is there something else?

you obviously haven't told us what gives you more authority on the matter than we have- we have bibles too. what gives you the edge?

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tinygiraffe wrote:

tinygiraffe wrote:
the jewish people belived that as well, and the "bible" is what leads them to believe you're wrong about jesus.

The Jews (in general; not all) accept the Hebrew scripture prophecies about the messiah; however, they do not consider the messiah to have arrived yet. Christians accept that Jesus was the promised messiah having fulfilled all the Hebrew scripture prophecies about the messiah.

Quote:
if many of us read your bible, we find different conclusions than you do.

Genesis 40:8 and 2 Peter 1:20 explain what is needed to come to the same conclusions. In actuality, as you have noticed, most folks come up with their own interpretations or conclusions.

Quote:
clearly, there is some component other than the bible involved. god maybe. which brings me back to my original question. do you think the bible alone equips us fully, or is there something else?

Definitely. I will include a Bible quote: "But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them], because they are examined spiritually. However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. (1 Cor. 2:14, 15)

Quote:
you obviously haven't told us what gives you more authority on the matter than we have-we have bibles too. what gives you the edge?

I am a student of the Bible, have been for more than 25 years. That does not make me an expert. Far from it. As far as authority goes, I am of no account. That is why I often include a scripture in our discussions. I accept Scripture as the authority; and I also accept that most people today do not accept it as authoritative. Perhaps this accounts for any perceived "edge" that you feel I might have. (Hebrews 4:12)

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Quote:

The Jews (in general; not all) accept the Hebrew scripture prophecies about the messiah; however, they do not consider the messiah to have arrived yet.

right, and the bible is the reason they think he hasn't. your version of it is longer, but it includes (rather than discards) the same parts of it in question. why do you interpret it differently than they do?

Quote:

Genesis 40:8 and 2 Peter 1:20 explain what is needed to come to the same conclusions. In actuality, as you have noticed, most folks come up with their own interpretations or conclusions.

but it also explains what's needed to come to different conclusions. how do you know you aren't one of the people drawing his own interpretations? and what do you think of "midrash?"

Quote:

I accept Scripture as the authority; and I also accept that most people today do not accept it as authoritative. Perhaps this accounts for any perceived "edge" that you feel I might have.

maybe, but actually i don't believe most people have an edge... maybe no one does overall. you must think you have one if your interpretation is the "real" one however, while everyone else has "his own."

i think everyone has his own, but i don't think there's a single right interpretation. if the scriptures are written by the god of abraham, i have to assume (for now) that midrash was intended. that's where we seem to disagree.

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