What's wrong with this chart?

Ticomaya wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
DrewDad, I did a Google search on that very topic, and the surprise finding was that more whites are executed than minorities.

More whites than minorities sitting on our death row.

Now look at the numbers relative to the general population.

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The law doesn't need to change the wording. Even with these parameters, there is still "doubt." Most things us humans do when it involves law or medicine, it's not perfect - although we strive for it.

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c.i.- As a society, we do the best that we can. I just would hope that people were as concerned about the victims of crime, as you are about the perps.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

That's up to the judge and jury to decide. They will be better equiped to make decisions based on the evidence presented in trial.

Good answer.

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DrewDad wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
DrewDad, I did a Google search on that very topic, and the surprise finding was that more whites are executed than minorities.

More whites than minorities sitting on our death row.

Now look at the numbers relative to the general population.

What would that show me? 2 of the seven death row inmates are black, while the remaining 5 appear white. See THIS POST

86% of Kansans are white, while 6% are black, according to the 2000 census. But that doesn't reflect the racial balance of the more major metropolitan areas -- where more crime is committed -- which have a relatively higher percentage of minorities.

In addition, the two black inmates, Reginald and Jonathan Carr, are brothers convicted of the same crime spree -- a quadruple murder, plus another murder, here in Wichita.

What does this illustrate? Nothing.

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Phoenix, I have never argued in favor of a criminal over the victims, so what's your point?

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c.i.- My point is that forensics, through DNA testing, has gotten to the stage where a person's guilt or innocence can be proven with a great degree of accuracy. Many people who might have been a suspect of a crime twenty years, can now easily be ruled out.

I think that we have advanced to the point where the margin for error has gotten much, much smaller. And, as I said before, I would not approve of the death penalty if there was the slightest idea that the person might be innocent.

And yet, you still seem to be concerned that someone might die in error. I doubt it. With the DNA, and the appeals, I think that the law has things pretty much under control, as pertains to the guilt or innocence of a person.

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Your confidence level is much greater than mine; I'm not criticizing you for that. It's my personal opinion and position that even today, jury's can make mistakes. I just hate to think that an innocent person is executed for the wrong conviction. I have no problems wtih the execution of criminals that are proved guilty without any doubt such as the Unibomber and Tim McVeigh. It's beyond "reasonable doubt."

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cicerone imposter wrote:

The law doesn't need to change the wording. Even with these parameters, there is still "doubt." Most things us humans do when it involves law or medicine, it's not perfect - although we strive for it.

So you are looking for absolutes in a world where there is rarely anything that can be proven to an absolute certainty.

If I kill my wife and all forensic evidence, witnesses and my motives show in court, beyond reasonable doubt, that I commited the crime. I can then claim that my evil twin Skippy actually commited the crime and that would completely negate any chance of ABSOLUTE certainty, since Skippy COULD be the murderer. So is the jury supposed to then find me 'not guilty' since there is no way for them to find me absolutely guilty?

If so, then I think more lawyers will be able to use the 'Evil Twin Skippy' defense.

There is a reason we use 'Guilt beyond reasonable doubt.' which is where a reasonable person would consider that individual guilty, based on the evidence presented, as opposed to 'Guilty beyond absolute doubt' where no one would ever be found guilty of anything.

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Ticomaya wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
DrewDad, I did a Google search on that very topic, and the surprise finding was that more whites are executed than minorities.

More whites than minorities sitting on our death row.

Now look at the numbers relative to the general population.

What would that show me? 2 of the seven death row inmates are black, while the remaining 5 appear white. See THIS POST

86% of Kansans are white, while 6% are black, according to the 2000 census. But that doesn't reflect the racial balance of the more major metropolitan areas -- where more crime is committed -- which have a relatively higher percentage of minorities.

In addition, the two black inmates, Reginald and Jonathan Carr, are brothers convicted of the same crime spree -- a quadruple murder, plus another murder, here in Wichita.

What does this illustrate? Nothing.

I'd agree. Seven on death row is not a statistically significant sample.

In Texas, however, it has, historically, been scewed to blacks/hispanics, low socio-economic status, and low intelligence.

And we have executed enough to make a statistically significant sample....

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Fedral, the Wookie defense is much better. Laughing

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DrewDad wrote:

Fedral, the Wookie defense is much better.

You mean the Chewbacca Defense:

Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, Chef's attorney would certainly want you to believe that his client wrote "Stinky Britches" ten years ago. And they make a good case. Hell, I almost felt pity myself. But ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one, final, thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentleman, this is Chew-bacca. Chewbacca is a Wookie from the planet Kashyyyk, but Chewbacca LIVES on the planet Endor. Now think about that. That does NOT MAKE SENSE.

Why would a Wookie, an eight-foot tall Wookie, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does NOT MAKE SENSE! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does NOT MAKE SENSE! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does NOT MAKE SENSE! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

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DrewDad wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
DrewDad, I did a Google search on that very topic, and the surprise finding was that more whites are executed than minorities.

More whites than minorities sitting on our death row.

Now look at the numbers relative to the general population.

What would that show me? 2 of the seven death row inmates are black, while the remaining 5 appear white. See THIS POST

86% of Kansans are white, while 6% are black, according to the 2000 census. But that doesn't reflect the racial balance of the more major metropolitan areas -- where more crime is committed -- which have a relatively higher percentage of minorities.

In addition, the two black inmates, Reginald and Jonathan Carr, are brothers convicted of the same crime spree -- a quadruple murder, plus another murder, here in Wichita.

What does this illustrate? Nothing.

I'd agree. Seven on death row is not a statistically significant sample.

In Texas, however, it has, historically, been scewed to blacks/hispanics, low socio-economic status, and low intelligence.

And we have executed enough to make a statistically significant sample....

Yes ... it appears that you shouldn't commit any murders in Texas unless you are ready to die yourself.

Whether the death penalty is disproportionately applied to racial minorities is a function of the prosecutors in place, since they make the decision whether to seek the death penalty or not in a given case. Of course the race of the victim/defendant should not factor into the decision.

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Fedral, You must've missed my post: "That's up to the judge and jury to decide. They will be better equiped to make decisions based on the evidence presented in trial."

I was involved as a jury member in a rape-murder trial of a young man. All the prosecutors had were circumstantial evidence. At one point, our jury was hung, but the judge instructed us to go back and discuss it. That young man is now serving a life sentence without the possibility of parole.

As a member of the jury, the jury forreman, I and the jury honestly felt that the circumstantial evidence was enough in our case to give that young man the death sentence. What we considered were the other informaiton provided to us by the young man's grandmother and brother. I feel to this day that we made the right decision to give him a life sentence in prision.

I would not presume to prejudge any trial without having all the information avaiable to the judge and jury. Each case is unique.

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Ticomaya wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
DrewDad, I did a Google search on that very topic, and the surprise finding was that more whites are executed than minorities.

More whites than minorities sitting on our death row.

Now look at the numbers relative to the general population.

What would that show me? 2 of the seven death row inmates are black, while the remaining 5 appear white. See THIS POST

86% of Kansans are white, while 6% are black, according to the 2000 census. But that doesn't reflect the racial balance of the more major metropolitan areas -- where more crime is committed -- which have a relatively higher percentage of minorities.

In addition, the two black inmates, Reginald and Jonathan Carr, are brothers convicted of the same crime spree -- a quadruple murder, plus another murder, here in Wichita.

What does this illustrate? Nothing.

I'd agree. Seven on death row is not a statistically significant sample.

In Texas, however, it has, historically, been scewed to blacks/hispanics, low socio-economic status, and low intelligence.

And we have executed enough to make a statistically significant sample....

Yes ... it appears that you shouldn't commit any murders in Texas unless you are ready to die yourself.

Whether the death penalty is disproportionately applied to racial minorities is a function of the prosecutors in place, since they make the decision whether to seek the death penalty or not in a given case. Of course the race of the victim/defendant should not factor into the decision.

That would be true in a perfect world....

Would you care to compare the outcomes of white defendant/black victim against the outcomes of black defendant/white victim?

The death penalty is not applied evenly across the board.

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I wanted to ask a question but I will let this discussion simmer down a bit first. (bming)

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I wanted to listen to realjohnboy's question, but apparently he's not quite ready. (bming)

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rjb, Go ahead and ask your q.

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C.I.,

You said on that jury of which you were a member you relied on the grandmother and brother? Do you mean evidence they provided at trial or was this after the trial?

I can't imagine being on a jury and having to decide this. That must have been very difficult for you to do.

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Momma Angel, I was in Louisiana a few months ago, right around the time of Katrina, and, if memory serves me correctly, I drove through Hodge.

Do you have a chainsaw sculpture of Jesus in your front yard? About thirty feet tall or so?

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