What IS the dirty little secret of multilingual people??

Which country is that?

Djibouti. Check out ze beginning of ze thread

There is not a dirty little secret, there is a slick running synapse. The brain is nothing more than a big spongy piece of electrified mush whose work in this world is to make synapses, electrical connections, that make survival possible. I'm ahead of myself. No pun intended.
Keep these four dirty little secrets in mind: apprehension, comprehension, retention and utility or "What's that?" "I get it." "I recall" and "yeah, I can use that."
When the brain, let's say a baby's brain, preceives a sound a little light goes on in the brain, literally BTW, you can see them on the enceph screens, and the little engineers hook up a connection in there between making the sound and whatever results, apprehension comprehension. So the baby gets a word and if it remembers it, it gets to use it. There all this inner tension between the four factors see? If the baby uses it, it's easier to recall and once the process of apprehension starts the brain hungers for more. We've all seen the process of the two year old asking over and over "What's that? and " oh wow"......

I'm not saying anything of this too clearly but what I mean to say is that there really is no limit to learning languages for the empty brain, so to speak. The trouble comes later. Let's say a kid has a word for something, anything and along comes someone else with a different word for the same thing. No problemo, says the baby's brain. And if the baby was given seventeen new words for the same thing, the brain would respond the same way AS LONG AS the other factors are there: comprehension, retention and utility.

In the adult brain learning is more difficult because the brain's response is "hey, we already got one of those." So the adult learner of language constantly has to remind the brain of the utility of the new knowledge through repetition and use, or the brain simply shuts off the light. If the adult learns that sququare means a small Persian pearl, but never has use for the word, the brain forgets it. (and before all the Scrabble players race for their dictionaries, I just made that word up. So forget it.) So if you are going to learn French you have to tell your brain that you need to keep these words


and it would help if you spoke to it in French. Oui?

More later

Joe

I often ask bilingual people if, when they're speaking that second language, they think in it also, or think in English and then translate.

Wilso, generally, if you are fluent in both languages, you tend to think in the language which you are speaking at the moment. To mentally translate from English to the target language would be quite disastrous as syntax and word order tend to vary from language to language. You'd come out with stuff like, "You home going are?" when you mean to say "Are you going home?"

For an interpreter, this is where the problem of seminar simultaneous interpreting becomes a challenge. Having to keep up thinking -- not speaking, but thinking -- in two languages at once can be quite a task for the brain to handle. I do this as a part-time job and in these situations am always partnered with another bilingual person. You simply can't handle it for more than maybe 20 to 30 minutes at a stretch before your eyeballs start to spin, your hair catches fire and your brain shuts down.

I've actually forgotten words in English and only been able to remember them in Spanish, and I'm not really even fluent. But I've always had various speech problems, so I guess it's not surprising.

that happens to me a lot, but the other way round

In response to your question, I think in Spanish when I speak in Spanish, considering that if one had to think in English and then translate, not only would there be grammatical and idiomatic problems, but one's speech would be slower and slightly awkward. I find that, until you get a good grip on a language, you continue to think in your own language. When I speak Portuguese, however, I think in Spanish and then 'Portufy' it.

As for me, I do not generally forget English words and replace them with French or Spanish ones, but rather inadvertently replace English words with French words, or confuse my linguistically poor family with trying to convey ideas that cannot be expressed in English with other languages. Very strangely, I have found that I remember things better in French, even though I have a more fluent command of Spanish. I find that if I translate figures or facts into French I always remember them. I installed recently a new alarm system, and I have to key in 1401 when I go in and out. The number has pervaded my English memory, but I remembered that I had turned the number into a date 'quatorze janvier' without any problem. Does anyone else get this?

The brain, despite being held captive inside it's cranium prison cell, can act pretty independently at times, which is why it decides to remind you of three bars of music over and over and over while you are trying to go to sleep, or remember where you put your car keys.

The example of it being easier to recall a number in French rather than in numerals is another indication that the better connected synaspe gets the call when recall is needed.

Let's all get up and dance ! ! !

Shake, shake, shake
Shake, shake, shake
Shake Djibouti
Shake Djibuoti . . .

Linguistics, Memory, and Early Development
Hi, everyone. My name is Kristen and I'm 16 years old. I'm not fluent in any language but my native English, but I'm currently in the process of becoming multiligual. I've taken 3 years of French and 2 years of Spanish simultaneously.

I was interested in language at a young age. Do you remember when they would count in Spanish on Sesame Street? That was always my favorite part--I remember even today. So when I was 2 years old I would count in Spanish.
In school, I never had problems with spelling, reading, or grammar. For many years I was dying to learn another language. Finally, I convinced my mom to buy me a PC French tutor. I learned a few words, but hardly anything stuck except nasalized sounds and French r's, although I found French to be very easy.
My second year of French, I decided to take Spanish as well. I find Spanish to be easier having already had basic grammatical background (since French and Spanish are grammatically very similar). It's also easy for me to sing in foreign languages and remember artificial languages like HTML. Can anyone relate?

So, here are my theories: 1) child's brain retains information and grows better than an adult's. I feel that the earlier a child learns language (foreign as well), the better they will probably be at language. I also read that the brain doesn't absorb information as well after the age of 12.
2) I was wondering if memory could also play into it. I've also had an interest in acting since I was young and I find I can memorize things very easily.
3) I've found that French students generally do better than Spanish students (depending upon the students, of course), because many of the students who take Spanish are forced into it because a language is required and they feel that Spanish will be the easiest. Interest, as anything else, plays a *huge* role. That's probably the dirty secret!

Another thing as well: I seem to be able to grasp grammatical concepts and memorize them better than vocabulary. Does anyone else have this problem? I'm really curious to know about multilinguals!

Kristen

Complex Sentences and Foreign Language


Hey there. I'm still in high school and I've only taken French and Spanish -- so I'm not fluent, but I really love language.
I went to a French class over the summer at a college and I was to write a biography about Madame Curie in French.
Well, I made the mistake of firstly writing it entirely in English and then translating it into French. It sounds like you can relate. Well, the problem with this is that instead of thinking in the second language, one is thinking in his or her native tongue, which doesn't quicken comprehension. Secondly, since anglophones are more advanced in English, we tend to write in complex sentences, because that's what we were taught to do in school, right?
Well, I was really struggling to translate my complex sentences into French. I didn't realize my mistake until my friend pointed out how I was writing in English compared to my French abilities.
So that's that!

I'm really excited to have found all these posts about linguistics!
I really love grammar, too. I loved English grammar when I was in grade school and loved reading. But you have trouble with listening and comprehending? I don't speak Italian, but I sing it, and it's been my experience that all the vowels just naturally mush together-- probably more so than French. I can't speak very well either -- it takes a while to form the words in my head and then say them before I forget. It's much much easier for me to write.
Ugh, tenses. Tenses are confusing. Especially things like the imperfect and conditional. I don't know about you, but when I was taught English in school, I never heard about specific verb tenses except present, past, and future. I wonder if it's like that in foreign countries, too.

Well, I'd better stop. I could talk about language for hours. Anyway, Italian is really a beautiful language. Don't become discouraged!

Kristen

Strengths and the Brain


Ugh. I know what you mean. Maths and certain sciences (like Chemistry and Physics) are so hard for me compared to linguistics and social sciences. I wonder if that would have anything to do with the sides of the brain? I'm left-handed, so I use the right side more often.
What do you think?

I know of a lot of professional bicycle racers who speak up to five or six languages. I guess it's the nature of their profession, racing in the different countries of Europe and the world, and living such cosmopolitan lives.

I'm bilingual with English being my first language, and Spanish being my second. When speaking in Spanish I think in Spanish for the most part, but if I don't know a word, I think of it in English and try to communicate its meaning by describing it, or defining it. If the other person I am speaking with knows English, I'll use the English word. This is how the hybridized "Spanglish" came to be. It is a sloppy way of speaking, and I keep a glossary of words for which I have been at a loss, to resist resorting to Spanglish. Too many people are too lazy to learn the proper terminology. I try my damnedest not to be. I'm a translator at work.

For me the grammar comes naturally. It is the vocabulary that, just like with English, one must make a conscientious effort to expand.

The best way to keep oneself keen on languages is to use them and immerse oneself in them. I watch Spanish programming, listen to Spanish music, read Spanish literature, etc. At work I have an English-Spanish dictionary and a Spanish dictionary along with an English dictionary. I cannot stand being at a loss for words.

This may have been brought up before, anyhow:

I conclude that language-abilites depend primary on the sex.
Females are better at learning languages.

Second, babies learn the most.
They just pick up the different languages and voilà, they can speak them.

Thus, when you were a baby, only a single language was spoken around you, I would say.
As for your problems, you are too male. and you picked a too hard language.

Females probably learn more languages because they are taught more language than math, and they are encouraged by popular myths such as "women are better at languages" to learn languages rather than math. I am quite good at either or both, but only when I concentrate on them.

Even for babies, it takes them a year or so - it's not immediate. But that has been covered in the other thread.

I don't think this stereotype is necessarily true; it probably just seems that way because women are usually more motivated to talk!

Females probably learn more languages because they are taught more language than math, and they are encouraged by popular myths such as "women are better at languages" to learn languages rather than math. I am quite good at either or both, but only when I concentrate on them.

No, that is inborn skill. It is not a myth. It developed because the men did hunt and the women would talk in past times, hence why a lot of men like to shoot

Even for babies, it takes them a year or so - it's not immediate. But that has been covered in the other thread.


Yes, it does. So?

rufio, Marxism says it correctly.

If neurologists all over the world are correct, women's brains are wired differently than men's brains. More synapses on the right side of the brain, which governs language I believe. This counts on any language (foreign or not) acquisition and development.

Obviously this does not mean that women are no good in math or that men are no good in languages. We are talking about averages here.

BTW, Marxism, welcome to A2K.

As far as I knew, the only biological difference between men and women was testosterone. Do you have a source for this? It sounds almost exactly like something I read out of Seventeen magazine a long time ago.