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Factcheck discredits Dem claims of "different" pre-war Intel

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 10:39 am
CoastalRat wrote:
Naw, had to be them. I'm never wrong. Didn't you get the memo? Dang, someone messed up again and didn't send it to you. I'll make sure you are copied on that right away.

Don't bother. I have enough useless paper cluttering my office as it is.
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 10:39 am
Joe, maybe I misunderstand, but I think this is basically what Factcheck is stating.

The intel community believed, based on their best intel, that Saddam was a threat. Their intel was summarized in this 92-page document, which did indeed raise doubts that Saddam would readily sell his weapons to terrorists. This document was made available to congress, whose members may or may not have read it prior to the vote to authorize the use of force by Bush. Per Factcheck, the data contained in this report was not manipulated by the President. It is an accurate reflection of what the intel community believed based on the facts currently available.

So, unless you have verifiable facts that factcheck does not have (doubtful), then claiming that factcheck is wrong at this point is pure partisanship blindness on your part. Further facts may be forthcoming that will change the conclusion Factcheck has come to, but until that time, I will go with factcheck over your opinion every time.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 10:40 am
joefromchicago wrote:
CoastalRat wrote:
Naw, had to be them. I'm never wrong. Didn't you get the memo? Dang, someone messed up again and didn't send it to you. I'll make sure you are copied on that right away.

Don't bother. I have enough useless paper cluttering my office as it is.


See, the memo is probably among that other useless paper. I knew my secretary would not have left you off the list. Laughing
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 10:49 am
CoastalRat wrote:
Joe, maybe I misunderstand, but I think this is basically what Factcheck is stating.

The intel community believed, based on their best intel, that Saddam was a threat. Their intel was summarized in this 92-page document, which did indeed raise doubts that Saddam would readily sell his weapons to terrorists. This document was made available to congress, whose members may or may not have read it prior to the vote to authorize the use of force by Bush. Per Factcheck, the data contained in this report was not manipulated by the President. It is an accurate reflection of what the intel community believed based on the facts currently available.

Read the site again. Here is the header:
    Iraq: What Did Congress Know, And When? Bush says Congress had the same (faulty) intelligence he did. Howard Dean says intelligence was "corrupted." We give facts.
FactCheck, in part, investigated whether there had been any manipulation of the intelligence. I did not comment on that part of FactCheck's investigation. The other part dealt with whether or not Bush's claim that congress "had the same (faulty) intelligence he did" was correct. That part, I contend, is seriously flawed, because it assumes that the 92-page NIE that congress received was the same information that Bush had. That clearly cannot be the case.

CoastalRat wrote:
So, unless you have verifiable facts that factcheck does not have (doubtful), then claiming that factcheck is wrong at this point is pure partisanship blindness on your part. Further facts may be forthcoming that will change the conclusion Factcheck has come to, but until that time, I will go with factcheck over your opinion every time.

I don't have verifiable information, but then neither did FactCheck. The NIE is still classified -- FactCheck only saw portions of it. But it defies belief that all the information that Bush had was contained in a 92-page document. If you believe otherwise, then I think that would indicate a certain degree of blind partisanship on your part.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 11:00 am
Do I believe all the data Bush had access to was in that 92 page report? Probably not. I am making a possibly erroneous assumption that the report was a summary of data prepared by the intel community.

A summary is simply that. A summary of all the data. Factcheck, if I am reading right, is stating that the data in this (assumed summary) report was not manipulated by Bush.

And again, I am the first to admit that Factcheck may not yet have all the facts. I think I have stated that at least once. But based on the verifiable facts they do have, they make a conclusion that congressmen who claim Bush manipulated the facts are full of it. There may indeed be facts that could result in a reversal of Factcheck's conclusion. If so, fine. Let the facts take us where they lead. Right now, they are not leading us to believe that Bush manipulated congress into voting to allow the use of force. That's a fact.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 12:23 pm
CoastalRat wrote:
Do I believe all the data Bush had access to was in that 92 page report? Probably not.

Then we are in agreement.
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CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 12:49 pm
Ah, but until facts come to light that indicate otherwise, I also believe that the 92 page document is a good summary of all the available intel.

In other words, yes, there is definately more than 92 pages of intel data out there. But yes, the 92 pages congress was given is a non-manipulated summary of all the data. (At least according to the facts that are currently out there)

So I'm not too sure you will still think we agree. But maybe we can say we are close to agreeing.
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slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 02:54 pm
Joe,

So lets set aside Bush and the amount of info he had to make a war decision. I find more mind-boggling that all but a handful of senators and house members voted to go to war based on a five-page executive summary!!!
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 03:18 pm
The point that Congress was not privy to all of the information that the President had is backed by NPR's National security correspondent Jackie Northam. She states that Congress is not privy to the President's Daily Brief which is a compilation of highly classified, recent intelligence regarding national security concerns:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5017375

As to actual manipulation of intelligence, I think a lot of hair splitting is going to go on concerning the meaning of the word "manipulation," but Northam also states that the President used information about Iraq training al Qaeda members in bomb making, poisons, and deadly gases in a speech given in October of 2002 that had been deemed unreliable by the DIA and that it should be discounted.
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 03:21 pm
Quote:
So lets set aside Bush and the amount of info he had to make a war decision. I find more mind-boggling that all but a handful of senators and house members voted to go to war based on a five-page executive summary!!!


These sheep were just as violently paranoid and revenge stricken after 9/11 as their constituencies themselves.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 04:27 pm
CoastalRat wrote:
Ah, but until facts come to light that indicate otherwise, I also believe that the 92 page document is a good summary of all the available intel.

In other words, yes, there is definately more than 92 pages of intel data out there. But yes, the 92 pages congress was given is a non-manipulated summary of all the data. (At least according to the facts that are currently out there)

I'm not sure why you'd say that. You haven't seen the 92-page NIE and neither has FactCheck. Until that document is declassified, all I would be prepared to say is that we don't know whether the intelligence collected therein was manipulated or not.

CoastalRat wrote:
So I'm not too sure you will still think we agree. But maybe we can say we are close to agreeing.

We agree that congress didn't have as much intelligence information as the president. That's as far as I'm willing to go, because that's as far as the present information leads.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 04:29 pm
slkshock7 wrote:
Joe,

So lets set aside Bush and the amount of info he had to make a war decision. I find more mind-boggling that all but a handful of senators and house members voted to go to war based on a five-page executive summary!!!

I found that particular revelation to be absolutely nauseating. Not surprising, regrettably, but nauseating all the same.
0 Replies
 
 

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