JustWonders wrote:Just in case some missed it, here's what King Bush said ...
I didn't miss that. Not only that we don't have an absolistic monarchy anymore, we've got separation of powers here.
Bernie, working today, computer time limited. Read the LAT's article...
Adding to the administration's woes, senators Friday blocked renewal of the Patriot Act, the signature law that the administration has used in fighting alleged terrorists in the courts. The law had been passed overwhelmingly shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks, but critics have said that some of its provisions allow the federal government to trample on civil liberties.
Bush began his address Saturday by lashing out at the Senate opponents of the act's renewal, calling their filibustering "irresponsible."
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-bush18dec18,0,1170757.story?page=2&track=tottext
Yeah. The speech last night was pulled together quickly in hope of controlling the potential media/government/citizen outrage at internal monitoring without legal check. Libertarian republicans are flaring up on this too. JW and others like her will justify torture, so no surprise at all this gets justified too.
Did anyone watch the Lehrer interview with Bush on Friday? The man is so clearly lacking in the necessary knowledge, intelligence and strength of character to head up the US that it was really uncomfortable to watch. But of course it isn't at all clear that HE is running things.
The salient truth on this matter is that both the British and the French governments have and use similar powers and techniques in their own security services - and they are authorized by law. (Evidently Germany has achieved a higher degree of perfection.)
This is a political issue being fought over the opportunity for political gain by people and parties who in other areas advocate far greater government intrusion into the lives of the citizens and for far less gain and involving far less critical matters. The selectivity of the outrage here is a good indicator of the cinicism and hypocrisy behind it.
So to you it's no big deal, then?
"Yeah. The speech last night was pulled together quickly in hope of controlling the potential media/government/citizen outrage at internal monitoring without legal check. Libertarian republicans are flaring up on this too. JW and others like her will justify torture, so no surprise at all this gets justified too."
Not likely. The Senate fllibuster defies the administration - and only when provisions are amended to exclude invasion of citizens rights <which will be fought in the courts for years> and 'terrorist' defined will the Senate pass the new version of the Patriot Act.
Justifying torture ludicrous - and the Senate agreed.
georgeob1 wrote: (Evidently Germany has achieved a higher degree of perfection.)
Additionally, we have in our constitution than any secret courts are forbidden.
georgeob1 wrote:The salient truth on this matter is that both the British and the French governments have and use similar powers and techniques in their own security services - and they are authorized by law.
I'm not
that sure about the French situation, but at least in the UK the Prime Minister can't order such without a judge's decission.
Same in France, as far as I could find out by now.
Clearly you are superior in every facet of society and governance.
georgeob1 wrote:Clearly you are superior in every facet of society and governance.
Not sure if you are cynical here.
But at least we learnt that from our sad history, namely that law can only by supervised by independent judges and not secretely by politicans.
Yes I was a bit cynical there. We are involved in a very serious struggle which is largely the legacy of the encounter between Wewtern Civilization and the Islamic World since the modern era began in the late 15th century. The Islamic world is stuck in two failed paradigms, and blames the West (not entirely without reason) for failures largely of its own making. During the Cold War Western Europe learned well how to coast in the shadow of the United States, which had no alternative but to be the focus of resistence to Soviet tyranny. Europe is repeating that (successful for them) tactic today with respect to the distemper in the Islamic world. This of course is your right, but it would be nice if you would spare us the tiresome pretense of moral superiority.
We only got this "moral superiority" after we were freed by the allies and they gave (back) their ideas about democracy.
I appreciate your sentiment, but that's not entirely true. No nation is immune from episodes of tyranny and oppression - and all the major Western nations have had their moments in this rogues gallery. Many of the ideas and practices of what we today call modern liberal societies had their origins in Germany, as you well know. The rhetoric of the Allies was all about democracy, but their motives were to ensure their own survival in the face of real danger. Many of the methods they used would not gain the approval of the self-appointed judges on this thread - a fact that is often forgotten here. It was very difficult to arouse a recognition of the dangers before then both within Germany and among some of her neighbors in the 1930s, preoccupied, as they were by the 'Red Menace' to the East (a truly cruel historical dilemma).
History offers us many lessons. In practice it is often difficult to remember them, and even more difficult to be wise enough to apply the right ones. It would be nice though to see these discussions here penetrate more than a milimeter below the surface of the issues being discussed.
blatham wrote:And a piece on surveillance and the sort of idiots who often weasel up into positions of power and authority and then mis-use that power because they are idiots and because power corrupts idiots faster than non-idiots...
Quote: NEW BEDFORD -- A senior at UMass Dartmouth was visited by federal agents two months ago, after he requested a copy of Mao Tse-Tung's tome on Communism called "The Little Red Book."
Two history professors at UMass Dartmouth, Brian Glyn Williams and Robert Pontbriand, said the student told them he requested the book through the UMass Dartmouth library's interlibrary loan program.
The student, who was completing a research paper on Communism for Professor Pontbriand's class on fascism and totalitarianism, filled out a form for the request, leaving his name, address, phone number and Social Security number. He was later visited at his parents' home in New Bedford by two agents of the Department of Homeland Security, the professors said.
http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-05/12-17-05/a09lo650.htm
Bernie, animal rights activists are called terrorists - so are enviornmentalists. Not surprising Homeland Security visited the student, but what amazes me even more is the fact the student doesn't wish giving interviews.
There are some real assholes wielding power that they have no business having, or worse - using.
That said - there are also government officials working to rid the nation of those that would legislate Americas rights away.
I am amazed that the Germans are in any position to lecture the USA. It is like the town drunk( reformed, of course) telling the occasional tippler that he should not take a drink.
The Holocaust will be studied for centuries and will take as much space in our future History books as the Inquisition. Any alleged illegal or unconstitutional "Spying" by the present US administration will be relegated to a footnote.
Walter Hinteler may not be familiar with the History of the United States in which our arguably best president, Abraham Lincoln, suspended the right of "habeas corpus" because of emergency owing to the civil war.
Mortkat wrote:I am amazed that the Germans are in any position to lecture the USA. It is like the town drunk( reformed, of course) telling the occasional tippler that he should not take a drink.
The Holocaust will be studied for centuries and will take as much space in our future History books as the Inquisition. Any alleged illegal or unconstitutional "Spying" by the present US administration will be relegated to a footnote.
Walter Hinteler may not be familiar with the History of the United States in which our arguably best president, Abraham Lincoln, suspended the right of "habeas corpus" because of emergency owing to the civil war.
Believe it or not, I actually agree with most of that statement, Mort. I would only point out, regarding the second sentence in your post, that nobody is more qualified to lecture a potential alcoholic than the (reformed, of course) town drunk. The entire program of Alcoholics Anonymous is based on this concept and it seems to work quite well.
