J_B,
I didn't take it in a negative way at all. I am one of Jesus' flock and am so grateful and thankful that I am. Using the term flock is just like using teacher/student, shepherd/flock, etc.
I just read Small Gods by Terry Pratchett. It's not a serious work on religious philosophy, but thoughtful and thought-provoking all the same. And funny. His storyline points out the difference between god(s) and religion. And why I dislike religion falls into the dichotomy.
I find that when I like to religious books, I find that their tenets (is that the right word) are generally good. But what I see, currently and through history, religion doing sometimes makes me feel physically ill. Seeing people follow with their eyes closed in such blind faith makes me feel both envious and frutrated. Envious because while I'm a terrible follower, I'm also not a good leader. I sort of drift. Frustrated because it seems to me that good people can be persuaded to do bad things for their god.
At least that's the way I see it. I don't really have a beef with any of the gods I've learned about. It's the religions that buildup in a god's name that often irk me.
Well, upon reading up, I see I haven't added anything new (except maybe the book title) to this thread.....
littlek,
I understand where you are coming from. But, I think it is important to realize that anyone that would fly airplanes into a building to kill innocent people is not doing it for God. They are doing it for their own motives.
God does not demand that we go out and kill for him. Once Christ came the old ways feel away.
Everything that everyone does is done for their own motives.
Momma Angel wrote:littlek,
I understand where you are coming from. But, I think it is important to realize that anyone that would fly airplanes into a building to kill innocent people is not doing it for God. They are doing it for their own motives.
God does not demand that we go out and kill for him. Once Christ came the old ways feel away.
I agree with you Momma. However.... Those people who do bad things are thinking, in their mind, that they are doing those things in the name of God. Sure, they are irrational and perhaps deluded, but they seem to believe that.
We, as Christians, deplore that and in no way agree with it. It is, however, reality that we cannot ignore.
Phoenix32890 wrote:Quote:Did you sleep through the atheistic Communist bloodbaths of the 20th century?
Real life-Are sociopathic atheistic societies proof that a theist society is, by definition, a kinder, gentler, one? There are rotten apples that abound in the entire spectrum of belief. The problem is, that religions have a long history of blood, guts and mayhem in the NAME of their God.
(BTW, did YOU sleep through hIstory class when they taught about the Crusades, or the Inquisition?)
You made a comparative statement that the most heinous acts in history had been committed with a religious motivation.
I disagree. The millions who were enslaved and perished in a few short decades under the boot of atheistic Communism far surpass the thousands that died in the Inquisition or the Crusades.
Even with the history of the European religious strife, any observer would have to conclude that on the whole the traditionally Christian nations of America and Europe have produced much freer societies than any others.
So perhaps by definition theistic societies are not better, but by experience nearly all would recognize that the predominantly Christian ones have been.
Intrepid,
I agree with you totally. It's just hard to understand anyone could think God would condone such behavior.
Momma, I don't understand why god would condone a lot of behavior people say he condones.
J_B wrote:Let's discuss flocks...
I always had a problem being a follower. Flocks remind me of sheep, sheep remind me of followers, followers remind me of blind trust which scares the hell out of me. Particularly when the blind trust is being spoken by a human who claims to have a direct line to God's intent.
MA, I'm not trying to pick on you here, but when you called yourself one of the Flock, my radar alarms started screaming. It's the concept of flock that bothers me about organized religion, or at least that's one on the things that trouble me.
Anyone else?
I have little doubt that if we were to examine your life, we would find a high degree of conformity to the mores of your peers. You are a member of a flock somewhere, I am sure, even though it may not be religious.
littlek,
Well, I think the problem is people confuses what God condones with what God permits. God permits many things but He doesn't condone them.
Intrepid wrote:Those people who do bad things are thinking, in their mind, that they are doing those things in the name of God. Sure, they are irrational and perhaps deluded, but they seem to believe that.
We, as Christians, deplore that and in no way agree with it. It is, however, reality that we cannot ignore.
It's called faith. Unquestioning faith. No matter the religion, when an individual carries out an act because he believes it is the will of God (whatever God he may be following) he imparts his faith on the lives of others. All acts of faith could be discounted as irrational and deluded. No one group has the market on faith. No one group has a justification to impose it's version of faith on the world. No one knows Truth.
Similar mores are one thing - entire belief systems are another all together.
J_B WRote:
Quote:It's called faith. Unquestioning faith. No matter the religion, when an individual carries out an act because he believes it is the will of God (whatever God he may be following) he imparts his faith on the lives of others. All acts of faith could be discounted as irrational and deluded. No one group has the market on faith. No one group has a justification to impose it's version of faith on the world. No one knows Truth.
J_B, what good would faith be if we questioned it all the time? What good would God be if He had to prove Himself to mortal man?
I have to disagree with you about no one knows truth. I agree no one knows the 100% truth, but one can and does know truth.
real life wrote:
I have little doubt that if we were to examine your life, we would find a high degree of conformity to the mores of your peers. You are a member of a flock somewhere, I am sure, even though it may not be religious.
hmmm, let me think about that....
I'm self employed, not a soccer mom, don't drive an SUV, call foul where I see it in my community rather than avoid rocking the boat. It's possilbe real life, but I'm much more a coyote than a sheep. :wink:
J_B wrote:Intrepid wrote:Those people who do bad things are thinking, in their mind, that they are doing those things in the name of God. Sure, they are irrational and perhaps deluded, but they seem to believe that.
We, as Christians, deplore that and in no way agree with it. It is, however, reality that we cannot ignore.
It's called faith. Unquestioning faith. No matter the religion, when an individual carries out an act because he believes it is the will of God (whatever God he may be following) he imparts his faith on the lives of others. All acts of faith could be discounted as irrational and deluded. No one group has the market on faith. No one group has a justification to impose it's version of faith on the world. No one knows Truth.
How about good acts? Do you dismiss those as well and suggest that because they are done in faith they should be discounted? Are you so naive as to think that those who do not have faith do not impart their views on others? If no one knows truth... then why should we believe what you are saying?
Woman says pastor raped her in ceremony
Associated Press
FORT WORTH ?- A Fort Worth pastor was arrested on a sexual assault warrant after a church member said he raped her under the guise of casting out demons.
Leonard Ray Owens, 63, was arrested Friday after he went to police to give a voluntary statement. Owens, the pastor of Prayer House of Faith, has denied having sexual contact with the woman, police said.
The 22-year-old woman told authorities Owens raped her in July when she went to his home for counseling. According to an affidavit, the pastor told the woman she was afflicted by demons and instructed her to lie on the floor so he could cast them out of her body. She attempted to get up when he began removing her clothing, but he pinned her down, ignored her pleas to stop and assaulted her, the affidavit said.
After the alleged incident, the woman said Owens told her to wash her face and read a Bible passage.
She told police Owens raped her again about a month later and attempted to assault her in October for a third time.
According to the affidavit, the alleged victim told police that Owens "wants to know her every move and has told her that no one will believe anything she says about him as he is a minister."
Authorities said the woman also interpreted several of the pastor's statements as threats, including one in which he called her a witch and said the Bible mandates that witches be killed.
Owens was booked into jail Friday with bail set at $25,000.
J_B wrote:real life wrote:
I have little doubt that if we were to examine your life, we would find a high degree of conformity to the mores of your peers. You are a member of a flock somewhere, I am sure, even though it may not be religious.
hmmm, let me think about that....
I'm self employed, not a soccer mom, don't drive an SUV, call foul where I see it in my community rather than avoid rocking the boat. It's possilbe real life, but I'm much more a coyote than a sheep. :wink:
Coyotes run in packs, don't they? :-)
Momma Angel wrote:[
J_B, what good would faith be if we questioned it all the time? What good would God be if He had to prove Himself to mortal man?
I have to disagree with you about no one knows truth. I agree no one knows the 100% truth, but one can and does know truth.
Faith brings solace to those who have it. That's where it is good. So for those who have faith, it wouldn't do them any good to question it because then they wouldn't have the solace they get from it. God doesn't have to prove anything. God either is or isn't. God can only be known through the lens of the person looking. You know the truth, and I know the truth, and everyone else knows the truth (with the exception of some agnostics who refuse to take a stand), but no one knows Truth. Maybe Truth is the compilation of all of our truths. Maybe we're all partially right and in combination we've got it covered, maybe not.
My point MA is as strongly as you believe your truth is right, so do those who believe only their truth is right. All acts carried out in the name of faith can be considered irrational and deluded because they are based on truth, not Truth.
