Genesis Redux

Momma Angel wrote:

And one more time, jstark, please tell me where I can find the KJV with these books in it?

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Thank you, jstark! I do appreciate that.

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momma, I'm starting to get a little snappish here I think. I disagree with you pretty thoroughly, but from all your posts you seem like a genuinely nice person, and I don't want to snap at you, so I'm going to sleep. Pleasant dreams when you do.

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Username,

I didn't take any of it as snappish. I hope you have sweet dreams yourself!

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Momma Angel wrote:

Finally! Thank you. But, I am afraid that I agree with what gotquestions.org says about them. Also, I just spoke with a Minister and asked him about these books. He says he agrees with the answers found about this issue on gotquetions.org.

But, I am going to read these.

But gotquestions is not dealing with the issue. The issue is not how we feel about them now, the issue is that in the KJV, the one King James was delivered upon it's completion, that actual KJV, had the Apocrypha in it. Meaning that the Authorized KJV, the one James himself authorized, has the Apocrypha in it. Then the Apocrypha fell out of fashion and were removed. Except you can still get a KJV that is true to the original, meaning with the Apocrypha included.

-J

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jstark,

I am not saying that these books were not ever there. What I am saying is these books are not the word of God. They were written by imposters. Yes, one might find some knowledge in them, but they were not inspired by God.

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Momma Angel wrote:

jstark,

I am not saying that these books were not ever there. What I am saying is these books are not the word of God. They were written by imposters. Yes, one might find some knowledge in them, but they were not inspired by God.

Ok, but that is not what I am saying. I am saying the if the KJV is divinely protected by God, then God changed his mind about what was to be included in the KJV.

Anyway, I need to get to bed myself.

Have a good night Smile

Kind Regards

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Well jstark, you can also look at it this way. Man put the books in there and they weren't supposed to be so God had them taken out.

I am sorry if I have been frustrating for you. I really am trying to learn this stuff. I do appreciate you answering my questions.

You have sweet dreams too!

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username wrote:

The Catholics say they've got the straight goods. You say you've got the straight goods. Jerry Falwell says he's got the straight goods. Osama binLaden says he's got the straight goods. The Dalai Lama says he's got the straight goods (he may). When so many people think they've got the truth, and they all are at each others rhetorical throats, I kind of think none of them have the truth.

Exactly!

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real life wrote:

Hi ?er,

Is it a 'cleverly-built con' just because you can't understand it?

It would seem fairly evident that if you or I could understand everything regarding a being called God, then that being could not really be God in the classic sense of an omnipotent, omniscient Being.

Of course it would be fairly evident. The exact argument you just posed is what makes it seem like a "cleverly-built con". There is no way to prove it, but with arguments like yours above there is no way to DISprove it either. It's air-tight.

Quote:

We can flatter ourselves that WE will be able to understand it, but it would seem that this is just self delusion.

Or sensical. In our current age of technology and science we are accustomed to being able to find evidences and proofs to help us understand things. It could be self delusion, I suppose, or arrogance.

Quote:

You asked earlier when anyone had witnessed a 'miracle of Biblical proportions'.

I suppose the answer depends on your definition of what that is, but I can tell you from experience that I have seen answers to prayer that I had no control or influence over whatsoever. This has happened numerous times.

(It's not because God likes me more than you, I can tell you.)

This happens when you:

---Find out when and under what circumstances God says He will answer prayer.

---Be sure that you are meeting all of those conditions.

---Pray; asking God consistently and specifically.

But I can tell you that even after experiencing this many times, I cannot understand God. My brain goes TILT.

Yeah, I just don't buy in to the answered prayer thing. This stems from personal experience, but it seems that by setting up exact criteria for conditions that you are doing little more than covering all your bases to make sure that luck and fortune fall in your favor.

Now, that is not to say that being a christian isn't helpful in having things go well for you. If you're looking for a job, and are in an interview process, it's quite possible that your dilligence and hard working nature (which are christian attributes, at least if you're a decent christian) will give you an advantage over someone who does not retain those qualities.

Question

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Momma Angel wrote:

Well jstark, you can also look at it this way. Man put the books in there and they weren't supposed to be so God had them taken out.

I am sorry if I have been frustrating for you. I really am trying to learn this stuff. I do appreciate you answering my questions.

You have sweet dreams too!

Did God only remove the Apocrypha from your Bible? God has not removed it from my KJV, the one on my desk. God has not removed the Apocrypha from the Septugint. God does not seem to have gone back in time and removed the Apocrypha from version of the KJV that still exist from the 15th and 16th centuries.

The people who scribe the KJV were said to have been divinely inspired. Isn't it possible that God put the books in and man took them out? Or perhaps man both put them in and took them out?

It was the Puritans who were mainly responsible for getting the Apocrypha removed from the KJV. If your not a Puritan, do you think it was right for them to tamper with the Bible? Every English translation that existed prior to and including KJV included the Apocrypha.

Morning!
-J

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jstark,

I haven't had time to read all that stuff. I am working on it. How can I answer these questions until I do? gotquestins.org said some of those books were written by imposters. I am researching that. Why are you pushing this so hard? Are you trying to prove the Bible is not protected by God? Trying to prove it's not inspired by God?

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Momma Angel wrote:

jstark,

I haven't had time to read all that stuff. I am working on it. How can I answer these questions until I do? gotquestins.org said some of those books were written by imposters. I am researching that. Why are you pushing this so hard? Are you trying to prove the Bible is not protected by God? Trying to prove it's not inspired by God?

I'm pushing this so hard because I have invested a lot in getting this far, and you haven't asked me to stop, until now. Smile

As for what I'm trying to prove, I don't really think the burden of proof is on me. Historically, it does not look like the Bible was at all protected by God. It looks to have been clearly in the hands of humanity. Case in point, the minister you spoke to said that the Apocrypha should not be in the KJV after all. Well who is he to make that choice!

Anyway, take your time, I'm in no rush.

But if you post, expect replies!

-J

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jstark,

Well, now I feel like I fell into a trap. I thought we were just having a discussion and exchanging ideas. I didn't realize you were really trying to get me to prove your point for you.

And who are you or anyone else to make that choice? Sometimes you just have to take things on based on faith. I do not require positive scientic proof of God or the fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. I honestly feel pain in my heart for those that do. Faith is hope (IMO).

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Momma Angel wrote:

jstark,

Well, now I feel like I fell into a trap. I thought we were just having a discussion and exchanging ideas. I didn't realize you were really trying to get me to prove your point for you.

Why do you feel you fell into a trap? If you did I am not the one who set it, and could you point it out so I can avoid it?

I think we are just at the part of any debate where someone at least says, "I see your point". Barring that, we are at the point in a debate where people start accusing one another of dishonest engagement.

I'm not interested in pushing this beyond where your prepared to go. If you need to do research and get back to me, no problem. If the whole discussion is not worth your time, no problem! But you were very engaged previously so I was following along in that spirit.

Thanks for the dialog Smile

Kind Regards

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jstark wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
jstark,

Well, now I feel like I fell into a trap. I thought we were just having a discussion and exchanging ideas. I didn't realize you were really trying to get me to prove your point for you.

Why do you feel you fell into a trap? If you did I am not the one who set it, and could you point it out so I can avoid it?

I think we are just at the part of any debate where someone at least says, "I see your point". Barring that, we are at the point in a debate where people start accusing one another of dishonest engagement.

I'm not interested in pushing this beyond where your prepared to go. If you need to do research and get back to me, no problem. If the whole discussion is not worth your time, no problem! But you were very engaged previously so I was following along in that spirit.

Thanks for the dialog

Kind Regards

jstark,

No, you misunderstand me. I am the world's worst at getting my point across when I am trying to make a funny. I am going to have to refrain from doing that entirely, because I seem to have offended some by this.

Actually, I have been enjoying our discussion. I honestly, and yes I really mean it, had never heard of the apocrypha before in my entire life! So, of course, it was a shock at first. Then, I find differing opinions, etc. So, I really feel that in order to really share in a mutually beneficial discussion, then I have to read all this, which I am working on. Wish they had it in audiobooks! I can clean house and listen at the same time! LOL.

So, please forgive my feeble attempt at humor. This discussion is worth my time! I am trying to learn things and you are teaching me. So please, accept my apology. I will not accuse you of dishonest engagement, jstark, you have been very upfront and honest with me.

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/heart.gif

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Momma Angel wrote:

No, you misunderstand me. I am the world's worst at getting my point across when I am trying to make a funny. I am going to have to refrain from doing that entirely, because I seem to have offended some by this.

Now that's funny! I almost fell out of my proverbial chair!

<wipes tears from eyes>

Now what were we talking about...?

-J

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jstark,

I honestly did mean it as a giggle. However, after reading it over a few times I can see how it may not sound like that.

I have a habit of sometimes popping out the first thing that comes to my mind, especially if it gave me a giggle!

So, I am publicly apologizing for what seems to be me accusing you of setting a trap. I know that is not what you were doing and I sincerely am sorry that I posted what I did in the manner I did.

I really want to keep our discussion going.

Thanx,

Momma Angel

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MA,

I can not send PM's yet, so I could not reply to the one you sent. Something about needing to be an upstanding citizen of a2k first.

Just to be clear on my line of debate, I am not arguing wether or not the Apocrypha are false writings , canon or not canon, or valid Christian writings in any way. I am only noting that the were once a part of the KJV and now they are not. They could have been written by Mother Goose for all that it matters.

I say this in order to support the fact, err, contention that the contents of the Bible have been at the mercy of human hands and not under God's divine protection.

I'm arguing this because:

1. I simply don't see the supporting evidence for divine protection for the Bible. If you can supply some that would be helpful.

2. If we except the Bible as a human book then I fell it expands the usefulness of Christianity. Christians have done a lot of work on understanding our spiritual nature. They shoot themselves in the foot when they require certain distinctly disprovable facts to be true.

I do believe that the Bible could have been written by divinely inspired humans. I see nothing to disprove the possibility that the authors of the bible were channelling God. It's just that once that channel went to paper it was up to humanity to preserve it. Something I think we have done relatively well, actually.

Kind Regards

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jstark,

No problem about the PMs. Usually around 750 you get the privilege.

I am very glad that you cleared that up for me. I wasn't quite sure where you were going with it and I will admit I was a bit gun shy about it.

I honestly had never heard of the apocrypha in my whole life. So, of course, my first reaction was one of shock and disbelief. But, I am reading the books and doing research on them. So, right now, I can't give you even the slightest inkling of what I think about them. But I promise to get back to you on that.

And yes, I agree with your last statements.

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