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Genesis Redux

 
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 12:31 pm
And even if the bible was written as the direct word of God, it was certainly compiled by men at the Council of Nicea. The books selected for inclusion by the bishops only contained the story as the Catholic Church wanted it presented. Gospels and other writings that didn't fit the party line were intentionally excluded.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 12:38 pm
J_B wrote:
And even if the bible was written as the direct word of God, it was certainly compiled by men at the Council of Nicea. The books selected for inclusion by the bishops only contained the story as the Catholic Church wanted it presented. Gospels and other writings that didn't fit the party line were intentionally excluded.

J_B,

Can you offer some proof of these writing that were intentionally excluded?
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 12:45 pm
I'll be back....
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 03:11 pm
MA, I have spent many years studying Jesus, his teachings, and his ministry. As a critical thinker, rather than someone who depends on faith, I have read many sources of early Christianity including the Bible (NRSV because it is the most inclusive of any version), "Jesus, A Revolutionary Biography", by John Dominic Crossan, "Honest to Jesus", by Robert W. Funk, "The Complete Gospels" edited by Robert L. Miller which includes the four canonical gospels of Matthew, Mark, John, and Luke as well as the Signs Gospel (considered the source for most of the narrative of John and possibly the earliest written account of the deeds of Jesus), the sayings gospel Q (a source for much of the teachings of Jesus in Matthew and Luke), the Gospel of Thomas, the Secret Book of James and the Dialogue of the Savior, the Gospel of Mary, the Infancy Gospels of Thomas and James, the Gospel of Peter, the Egerton Gospel and the Oxyrhynchus Gospels 840 and 1224, the Secret Gospel of Mark (excerpts from a variant edition of the Gospel of Mark and may represent distinctive ways in which Jewish Christians interpreted the Jesus tradition), all retranslated by a panel of 19 religious scholars from the earliest sources written in Greek, Coptic, Latin, Aramaic, or Hebrew.

I have been interested in this topic for many years and it is my personal belief that modern-day Christianity as it is presented to the faithful is a created version that satisfied the demands of the Emperor Constantine when, according to Funk ,

Quote:
"he summoned the leaders of the church to Nicea, a suburb of Constantinople (modern Istanbul), to adjudicate controversies among warring factions in the ecclesiastical world. He presided at that council himself, although not yet a Christian. The first form of the Nicene Creed (it was later explanded), which contained the formulations of the council, was intended to unify the various parties. Constantine saw to it that the vote was unanimouse by banishing the bishops who did not put their signatures to the creed. There was now an official statement of correct beliefs, an orthodoxy, to which everyone had to subscribe. those who did not became "heretics" - dissenting parties."


Funk further explains about the concept of Bible and book as something that wasn't available until the invention of the printing press around 1454. He states,
Quote:
The earliest of the papyrus manuscripts of the New Testament can be dated to the second century CE, the latest to the eighth.... The New Testament is a canon of scripture <which means> "a critical standard or criterion." In the case of the NT, the canon includes those books accepted as genuine and inspired scripture by the community forming the canon. But that is a purlely formal definition. What we will need sbusequently is a historical definition, one that depicts how and when an authoritative collection of sacred writings was actually formed... In the early centuries, what was considered "canonical" varied from region to reguion and was actually determined largely by regional ecclesiastical officials rather than by popular assent: most members of the Christian movement would not have possessed copies of any of the books, and manuscripts of a complete Bible did not yet exist.. Books of the NT first circulated individually; they were later collected into groups.


From the time of the council at Nicea until well after the printing press had been invented, the Church was the main source of written materials. Only those materials which subscribed to the canon were reproduced and distributed by the Church. It was not until the discoveries of the Nag Hammadi library and the Dead Sea Scrolls in the 1940s that scholars began to renew the quest for the historical Jesus and the full story of his ministry, although Albert Schweitzer wrote, "The Quest of the Historical Jesus" in 1906.

MA, I know you are a person of great faith. I have no desire to attempt to discount that faith and I will not attempt to provide you with sufficient proof to shake your unshakable foundation. My religion requires that I undertake "A free a responsible search for truth and meaning". As such I have studied Christianity (in its many forms), Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, earth-centric religions of Native Americans, Wiccans and other pagans, and Hinduism. I'll keep searching for my truth because for me the spiritual journey *is* the search. So far the teachings of Jesus and the Buddha (who studied Jesus extensively) make the most sense to me. Not the Jesus of the Christian Bible, but the Jesus who preached nonviolence, tolerance, acceptance, and justice for all.

If you are interested in reading a non-canonical gospel and a spiritual guidebook for that gospel, I highly recommend, "The Gospel of Thomas: Annotated & Explained", by Stevan Davies and "The Gospel of Thomas - A Guidebook for Spiritual Practice", by Ron Miller.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 04:11 pm
J_B,

I appreciate the offer, but there is nothing you can do to shake my faith.

Am I reading you right when you say Christianity (in its many forms) to include those you listed?
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 04:20 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
J_B,

I appreciate the offer, but there is nothing you can do to shake my faith.

Am I reading you right when you say Christianity (in its many forms) to include those you listed?


Laughing The gospel of Thomas would do nothing to shake your faith, MA. It's about living the life of Jesus.

The many forms of Chrisitianity include Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, and the many branches of Protestanism, including Lutheranism, Anglican/Episcopal, Calvanist (Presbyterian and Dutch Reform), Puritanism, Congregationalists, Baptists, Quakers, Methodists and Evangelical. With the possible exception of the Evangelicals, all of the other denominations accept the rest of the list as Christian.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 04:30 pm
J_B,

Thanx for clearing up that list. I wanted to make sure I wasn't reading it incorrectly.

Can you tell me something about that gospel of Thomas? Is it supposed to be a book left out of the Bible? Can you give me a bit more info, please?

Thanx.
0 Replies
 
jstark
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 04:39 pm
MA,

There are many books that were included in the Bible and then removed at various times and in various printings throughout history. Look into the Apocryphal writings of Christianity. Specifically, look into early versions of the King James bible that included them (for hundreds of years). They were later removed, around the end of the 16th century do to Puritan Protestant influences, from what I understand.

J_B,

Do you have any insight here on the Apocrypha and the King James bible?

Kind Regards
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 04:47 pm
I read and study the King James Version.
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jstark
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 05:18 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
I read and study the King James Version.


That I suspected. But there were additional books that original belonged to the King James version. People of that time studied them as Christian canon. Here is a snippet I like from one of those books, The Wisdom of Solomon:

6:12
Wisdom is bright and unfading
And she is easily seen by those who love her,
And found by those who search for her.
She forestalls those who desire her, by making herself known first.
The man who rises early to seek her will not have to toil,
For he will find her sitting at his gates.
For to think of her is the highest understanding,
And the man who is vigilant for her sake will soon be free from care.
For she goes about in search of those who are worthy of her,
And she graciously appears to them in their paths,
And meets them in every thought.
For the truest beginning of her is the desire for instruction,
And concern for instruction is love for her,
And love for her is the observance of her laws,
And adherence to her laws is assurance of immortality,
And immortality brings men near to God;
So the desire for wisdom leads to a kingdom.
If therefore you take pleasure in thrones and scepters, monarchs of the people,
Honor wisdom, so that you may reign forever.

Kind Regards
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 05:18 pm
Quote:

The Apocrypha refer to texts which are left out of officially sanctioned versions ('canon') of the Bible. The term means 'things hidden away,' which implies secret or esoteric literature. However, none of these texts were ever considered secret.

In some Protestant Bibles, they are placed between the New and Old Testament. In the Roman Catholic Bibles the books are interspersed with the rest of the text. In this case they are also called 'Deuterocanonical', which means 'secondary canon.' The books on this page are all Deuterocanonical.

Jerome rejected the Deuterocanonical books when he was translating the Bible into Latin circa 450 CE, (see the Vulgate). This was because no Hebrew version of these texts could be found, even though they were present in the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint). However, they eventually were accepted by the Church, and most of them remained part of the Bible. Protestants rejected these books during the Reformation as lacking divine authority. They either excised them completely or placed them in a third section of the Bible. The Roman Catholic Council of Trent, on the other hand, declared in 1546 that the Deuterocanonical books were indeed divine.

Of these books, Tobias, Judith, the Wisdom of Solomon, Baruch, and Maccabees, remain in the Catholic Bible. First Esdras, Second Esdras, Epistle of Jeremiah, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, Prayer of Azariah, and Laodiceans are not today considered part of the Catholic apocrypha.

With one exception, all of these books are considered 'Old Testament'. The apocryphal New Testament 'Letter of Paul to the Laodiceans', was once incorporated in many versions of the Bible. However Laodiceans is now considered just a pastiche of other Epistles, and is omitted from contemporary Bibles.

There are many other apocryphal books, which do not fall into the 'Deuterocanonical' category, such as the many additional New Testament Gospels, and the apocalyptic book of Enoch.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/apo/index.htm


The King James Version underwent many translations and is credited with establishing much of the shape of the current English language. There were many examples of mistranslations in the KJV including the famous 'Wicked Bible' of 1631 which included a typographical mistake in the Ten Commandments to say, "Thou shall commit adultery". It was corrected in the Gideon edition. As you see, it isn't only the version of the Bible that comes into play, the particular translation of each version makes a difference as well. The New International Version (NIV) is popular among evangelicals, the most widely used is the Revised Standard Version (RSV), done under the sponsorship of the National Council of Churches after WWII. The New RSV (NRSV) was issued because of concern for gender-inclusive language and the desire for the inclusion of the Apocrypha.

MA, The Gospel of Thomas is a sayings Gospel. It includes no narrative, only a listing of teachings. It includes some sayings recognized in the canonical gospels and others that deemed it unsuitable for inclusion in the official texts. Because it is simply a listing of sayings, it is best read as an annotated translation or with other commentary, although it was certainly clear enough for the bishops to deem it unsuitable for inclusion into the canon. Again, I have no interest in rocking your boat. Historically the Church has held a hard line on defending the party line. Only recently has Rome agreed with the idea that evidence exists that Jesus might have been married and has acknowledged that Mary Magdalene was not the prostitute she was made out to be. Any evidence of either of these ideas was excluded from the writing of any formal version of the Christian Bible, as was any evidence that detracted from the Jesus as Christ scenario.

jstark - have you done any research into attributions - sayings and writings attributed to one writer but, in most likelihood, not actually written by the one it was attributed to?
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 05:22 pm
Jesus Christ was not married. Those are all lies that man makes up to discredit the Bible and God. They will not hold up.

When we read the Bible we are to pray and ask God for understanding. That I do.
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jstark
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 05:35 pm
J_B,

I have not researched attributions as a distinct topic, but I have read some of the pseudepigrapha, mostly while researching Gnostic traditions. It's interesting to read about some of the charatcers in the Bible that got supressed, like James. The Gnostic texts put a fine point on how Greek philosophy influenced Jewish and Christian thought.

MA,

Go back a page to the bottom of page 7, I just spent all this time typing in a passage from The Wisdom of Solomon for you and don't want it to go to waste Smile
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 05:46 pm
jstark,

Oh, I read it. The wisdom I seek is the wisdom of God, not man. I do not seek worldly things. I seek the spiritual.
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jstark
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 06:01 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
jstark,

Oh, I read it. The wisdom I seek is the wisdom of God, not man. I do not seek worldly things. I seek the spiritual.


MA,

How can you read that and think that it's not talking about the wisdom of God?

Confused
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 06:13 pm
This statement sounds pretty worldy to me. Now, if I am misreading it, I would be happy to hear how.

"If therefore you take pleasure in thrones and scepters, monarchs of the people,
Honor wisdom, so that you may reign forever."

I went back and read it again. Perhaps I did take that statement wrong. I think I just had my feelings on my sleeve here for a second. Not from you and I apologize if I let them get in the way.
0 Replies
 
Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 06:53 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Jesus Christ was not married. Those are all lies that man makes up to discredit the Bible and God. They will not hold up.

When we read the Bible we are to pray and ask God for understanding. That I do.


Or perhaps they are indicators that the son of god was truly a man of flesh and blood. Not surprising that those books would be removed as they clearly go against the picture of the perfect Christ that's been painted for us.

If Jesus came to earth to live as man, would he also not live the life men lead? Including marriage? Nothing sinful in that.
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jstark
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 07:15 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
This statement sounds pretty worldy to me. Now, if I am misreading it, I would be happy to hear how.

"If therefore you take pleasure in thrones and scepters, monarchs of the people,
Honor wisdom, so that you may reign forever."

I went back and read it again. Perhaps I did take that statement wrong. I think I just had my feelings on my sleeve here for a second. Not from you and I apologize if I let them get in the way.


First, I have to chuckle at the role reversal. Here I am defending Christian verse! Smile

The book is The Wisdom of Solomon, so I read that line as Solomon speaking to anyone who is a leader of people and beseeching them to Honor wisdom, which was of course Solomon's most respected virtue. As it is, Solomon's reign does seem to be forever as he is immortalized in the Canon of Christianity, Solomon's Song, as of course in Jewish texts also.

But the point J_B and myself are really making is that accepted canon has changed over the years, and some very recently. So to think there is only one true Bible is to limit yourself to only the past couple hundred years, if that. Even the Bible you study has gone through changes.

Like J_B, I am not saying this to try and break your faith, as if such a thing could be done. But, at least for my part, it's to question why your faith seems to require what I can only call a dogmatic belief in the purity of the KJV of the Bible as a source for Christian theology when it clearly is not. It is a very good source, but it was not penned and printed even as we have it today.

Kind Regards
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 07:15 pm
Questioner,

I believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. He was perfect. He had no sin. He was in a human body yes, but He did not have worldly desires.

Let me ask a question here. If, as some believe, this is all made up, why in the world didn't they write it so there wouldn't be all these questions?
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 07:25 pm
jstark,

It's not the Bible itself that I am always speaking of. I am speaking of the Word of God, the message of God, etc. I read other books about God.

Thanx for explaining that better for me. Like I said, I read it again, and I did misread it.
0 Replies
 
 

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