Atheists... Your life is pointless

@Ice Demon,

Sorry I do not have that book in my library.

But once more a man who it was known did not believes that Jesus was the son of god or the other supernatural nonsense in the bible was still elected president at the same time roughly half the newspapers of the time was labeling him an atheist a label he did not contest.

Therefore the claims that a nonbeliever could not be elected president had been proven wrong over two centuries ago as no matter if someone can spit hairs on whether he was an atheist or not he surely was not a Christian or a member of any other religions and did not believed in the supernatural.

An yet he was elected the third president of the US.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Re: Ice Demon (Post 5282324)
Sorry I do not have that book in my library.

But once more a man who it was known did not believes that Jesus was the son of god or the other supernatural nonsense in the bible was still elected president at the same time roughly half the newspapers of the time was labeling him an atheist a label he did not contest.

Therefore the claims that a nonbeliever could not be elected president had been proven wrong over two centuries ago as no matter if someone can spit hairs on whether he was an atheist or not he surely was not a Christian or a member of any other religions and did not believed in the supernatural.

An yet he was elected the third president of the US.

Earlier in this thread, you asked:

"How does any normally intelligent adult give any credit to such silly stories that any of the major religion faiths put forward?"

My answer reduces to: Because some people are stone-headed and will insist they are correct no matter what. They have preconceived ideas that they will not give up because of their stone-headedness.

You would have made a hell of a theist...a hell of a Christian, Bill.

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Times were much different then. People didn't want government in religion, and they didn't want religion in government. When, in about 1831, religious leaders called on Jackson to announce a national day of prayer because of a cholera epidemic, he refused, and was widely praised in the press.

These days, religion is a litmus test of a candidates suitability. Different times, different values . . . when Pappy Bush was running for President, he was challenged for having said that atheists shouldn't be allowed to vote. He confirmed that he had said it, and he said that he stood by it. The crowd at that rally cheered him.

Personally, i blame Lincoln for introducing religion into public life in the United States. That's ironic, too, as he was not previously known as a particularly religious mane. What he was, was a canny politician.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

But if that is the route one is going to go, there really isn't anything that someone could do that is not somehow based upon pride...

Religion combats this by explaining how it is the spirit of God who makes this choice, and it happens for a reason...Even if we see it is an abominable way...That is why I have no problem with abortions at times...so long as people are not misusing it...

Spade are you saying unselfishness requires pride and pride makes unselfishness wrong?

Are you also saying that whether a child is born or not is due to the 'grace of God' and therefore abortion may be ok in some circumstances... you do say 'at times' but surely it must 'always' be correct if I follow the logic of your belief in 'God's grace'?

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@igm,

Thank igm for shedding more light that I felt I should do.

So the question remains. How does an educated atheist justify bringing new life into a pointless world for selfish reasons which significantly risk the child being subjected to a range of miseries too long to be listed?

I don't think he can. So I thus think that educated atheists will think themselves into extinction and thus be an evolutionary failure. Selected out.

Darwin falls down because the creatures he based his theory upon, however correct the theory is for those creatures, were not educated and did not think. Any conclusions based on the evolution theory are inapplicable to mankind unless it remains uneducated. Teaching the theory in educational institutions without that explanation is thus contradictory.

Would an atheist elite which baulked at the risk deliberately keep the masses uneducated in order to provide itself with the services it requires to exercise its power and maintain it? Or would it resort to immigration which is a form of collective adoption.

I have met a few people who have baulked at the risk they might run for another by having children. I have also met a few who baulk at the risk on their own behalf. Children are something of a trial and remain so for a very long time.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

You would have made a hell of a theist...a hell of a Christian, Bill

LOL however Jefferson had proven a person who is openly not religion or a believer in the bible supernatural elements and who was charge with being an atheist can be elected President..

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@spendius,

Couldn't it be argued by some that selfishness may well perpetuate the species because it trumps reason?

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@BillRM,

Quote:

LOL however Jefferson had proven a person who is openly not religion or a believer in the bible supernatural elements and who was charge with being an atheist can be elected President..

Someone "charged" with being a socialist can be elected president also. That does not "prove" that Barack Obama is a socialist.

But the fact that a man who may or may not have been an atheist was elected does not mean...as you originally asserted...that an atheist has already been elected to the office. The election of Jefferson DOES NOT prove that an atheist has been elected to the presidency.

Can anyone name the individuals who are acknowledge atheists (or agnostics) who hold national office presently in the United States?

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@spendius,

Quote:

So the question remains. How does an educated atheist justify bringing new life into a pointless world for selfish reasons which significantly risk the child being subjected to a range of miseries too long to be listed?

One thing an atheist parent does not have to be concern about is his or her child joining the "wrong" religion or becoming a non believer and having their soul torture to the the ends of time.

A religion parents that give credit to a sadistic god ruling the universe such as the Christian god have far more reasons not to risk bringing children into the world then an atheist.

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@igm,

The reality for most "newborns" is not potentially a good one when looked at compared all of humanity - no matter which generation or culture. Over 3-billion people (almost half the human population) lives in poverty today.

http://cdn1.globalissues.org/i/poverty/wdi-2008/2005-poverty-levels-bar.png

That's not good odds.

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@Frank Apisa,

Sorry as far as we know he did not state "I am an Atheist" but even short of such an announcement he was still an open non-believer in any elements of a supernatural god and was known to be such a non-believer when he was elected.

So we are spiting hairs as a known non-believer whether label Atheist or not was indeed elected as the third President of the US.

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@cicerone imposter,

I forgot to add this important information of world poverty.

Quote:

At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day.Source 1

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5282403)
Sorry as far as we know he did not state "I am an Atheist" but even short of such an announcement he was still an open non-believer in any elements of a supernatural god and was known to be such a non-believer when he was elected.

So we are spiting hairs as a known non-believer whether label Atheist or not was indeed elected as the third President of the US.

Once again, Bill...you are simply asserting that he was a "non-believer."

Here are some quotes from him:

"Laws of Nature and of Nature's God..."

"... they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

"...with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence..."

”They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. “

"I have done for my country, and for all mankind, all that I could do,
and I now resign my soul, without fear, to my God..."

And how about this:

”I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.”
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

I do not know if Jefferson was an atheist or not...and I strongly suspect you do not either. The evidence, as far as I can see, seems to point more toward deism or agnosticism than toward atheism.

But you seem determined.

Forget about the presidency.

Of all the men and women who have ever held national office in the 230 years of the Republic...name every acknowledged atheist who has been elected.

NAME THEM.

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@igm,

Quote:

Spade are you saying unselfishness requires pride and pride makes unselfishness wrong?

Yes...I am saying if you truly do not want to be selfish...you have to know you are being selfish, in order to understand the reasons why you do not want to do it, and chose not to do it, for the choice to have merit...otherwise it does not mean anything...Unless one wants to argue how being less evolved would have been better for human existence?...Second part, Yes, if you then have too much pride, then you misunderstand the reasons, and it would be better if one were much simpler...your are then just prideful, or selfish...once again...because you learned, but became entangled again...

Quote:

Are you also saying that whether a child is born or not is due to the 'grace of God' and therefore abortion may be ok in some circumstances...

I am saying that I think everything will be OK, because there is a God who is said to give this life, or is the reason why people say not to have an abortion...but either way it and everything operates through this God...and it comes full circle...So there is no reason to fear anything, if you believe it...If there is no God, then there is never an end to any such injustices in the world, perhaps universe(s)...and atheism offers no solution to many of these issues, it seems that many atheists seem more concerned with their own absolutes...Which does not seem to be beneficial, even if there are no Gods...So what good reason is there to embrace atheism at all? What is it actually going to do? And what are all of its solutions to the problems that religions supposedly bring? If an atheist can not adequately explain what theists are buying into in rejecting a belief system and embracing doubts...then there is no good reason to do it, or even think it is any different just with a different spin...

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

"Laws of Nature and of Nature's God..."

"... they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

"...with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence..."

Pretty words taken out of content and I am damn sure if you look carefully enough and picked words out of content you could come up with similar result for myself or anyone else for that matter.

He still was a non-believer as I am also damn sure you also know so shame on your nonsense.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

One thing an atheist parent does not have to be concern about is his or her child joining the "wrong" religion or becoming a non believer and having their soul torture to the the ends of time.

This is what you say...but this is also how we all know you do not fully understand the concept of a God...If there is a God that does exist...and it wants to punish people forever...then rejecting that this God exists during ones life, does not save anyone from eternal condemnation...It would make it worse...

It is cool if you believe a God does not exist, and if it does, it would not do this...Or even if you believe you do not care...

(I do not think a God would want people to suffer forever myself)

But it is a totally different thing, if you do not even understand the concepts you say you reject...and why you chose to reject them...From the atheistic claim, you hurt them more...From the theistic claim, you are validating them, but do not know that you are...

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Once again, Bill...you are simply asserting that he was a "non-believer."

One thing that does seem almost certain is that he knew of a moral atheist and he never submitted the whole system of his opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where he was capable of thinking for himself and thought that these ideologies were addictions and were the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

Maybe I misunderstood what he was saying?

-Thomas Jefferson,
I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being
worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Pretty words taken out of content and I am damn sure if you look carefully enough and picked words out of content you could come up with similar result for myself or anyone else for that matter.

He still was a non-believer as I am also damn sure you also know so shame on your nonsense.

I do not know if was a "believer" or a "non-believer"...but any reasonable reading of his words probably lead in the direction of a guess that he was a deist...not an atheist. Almost everything he wrote and said indicated that he "believed" there was a GOD...but that he was unwilling to accept any of the religious descriptions of that GOD...and even found them silly and hypocritical. That is quite different from being an atheist.

You simply do not want to come to grips with that.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

there is a God that does exist...and it wants to punish people forever...then rejecting that this God exists during ones life, does not save anyone from eternal condemnation...It would make it worse...

Sorry I am well aware that the loving Christian god is ordering more gas burners in hell for me if he exist however Atheists rightly or wrongly does not believe in such nonsense so we do not have the worry about our children facing that fate from the Christian god where in all Christian believers do need to have that concern.

If their children become non-believers or even just non christian off to the flames forever they go.

How can good Christians take such a risk by having children that could end up in ever lasting flames?

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@reasoning logic,

RL...I agree completely with the notion that Jefferson thought the religions of the world suck...that they were little more than purveyors of (often abominable) myths and were, on the whole, a net negative for humanity.

I feel that way myself...but that does not make me an atheist. And those feelings in Jefferson do not make him an atheist either.

In any case, this entire line of discussion started when the difficulty of an atheist becoming president in the United States arose. Bill insists that an atheist ALREADY has been elected president in the person of Thomas Jefferson. I dispute that he can logically make that assertion. I also think the assertion that acknowledged atheists and agnostics ARE discriminated against when it comes to national politics. (Think of all those goddam "And god bless the United States of America" crap you hear.)

I ask you the same of you that I asked generally:

Name all the acknowledged atheists who have achieved national office since the Republic began?

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Atheists... Your life is pointless

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