Atheists... Your life is pointless

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

So then believers are born believing in God?

Nope.

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Or do you think that one discovers who they are, atheist/agnostic/theist once they reach an age of reasoning?

I think that someone can be (and often is) indoctrinated into a belief before "an age of reasoning". I think that once past "an age of reasoning", someone is capable of adopting or abandoning a belief.

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Do you think you had a choice in embracing atheism? And yes, I said embracing atheism...

Of course I had a choice.
I think that my will is free.
I think that I direct my decisions.
I don't think that any gods make my decisions for me.
The credit and blame for my actions goes to me.

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Even if, you were born a certain way about any topic in general...How could you know that you are one of those characteristics if you did not discovery it about yourself?

You couldn't.
I think that it is implicit in what is meant by knowledge that you cannot know something until you discover it.

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Or directly compare it to others who were different than you were? About any topic in general?

"About any topic in general" would require explanations for many different types of knowledge: personal, proceedural, propositional...etc. This would take more time than I am willing to invest right now. (You've asked me over a dozen questions in this one post) Wink

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And if you did then how does that = being born a certain way?

It doesn't.

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Surely, you agree that everything that one is exposed to, ultimately, cultivates them into the person that they are, from where they were, to where they are going? etc...

I DON'T agree.
This touches on the nature vs. nurture debate.
I think that "the person that they are" is the result of a complex interaction between genetic inheritance and environmental experiences.

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If that is the case and you were born an atheist, why even take the time to talk about Christianity unless you are looking for a cultivating factor either for or against the characteristics you would already claim you possess,

It isn't the case.
A very obvious reason for me to talk about Christianity is that it happens to be the predominant religion in my society. My understanding of that religion makes me much more capable of empathizing with people who have that religion. I also find the history of Christianity interesting on an academic level.

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and are not looking for sources to compare yourself to help change the things that you would like too, and strengthen the things you think you already do well?

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to get at here,
so I don't think I can give a meaningful answer. Sad

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In other words, if people are born with dispositions, why should anyone care about anything other than who they already are?

Firstly, dispositions are not the ONLY determinants of "who someone is".
Anyone should care about things other than who they are because existence is more than just floating in isolation. They should care because of all the things which exist that are not self, including other people (self's).

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@MattDavis,

You wrote,

Quote:

I think that someone can be (and often is) indoctrinated into a belief before "an age of reasoning".

I don't agree with this conclusion. Our family started out as Buddhist, then converted to Christianity when we were children, ages 1 to 7. I call religion an accident of birth. Generally speaking, children become adherents of their parent's religion - no matter what religion.

Some of us become atheists.

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@Val Killmore,

You may be correct but that does not mean a person who goes against many things I think are correct cant be correct at times. I do not know if this is real but if it is he is one weird person for sure in my opinion.

https://images.encyclopediadramatica.se/thumb/6/6c/TAABanana.jpg/600px-TAABanana.jpg

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@cicerone imposter,

There was a good reason for your parents to convert to Christianity. More than one actually. It made more sense to them than Buddhism and enabled them to be more acceptable to the community they had chosen to join.

What is the reason for converting to atheism?

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@spendius,

Quote:

What is the reason for converting to atheism?

Well if the economical structure was driven by atheists "regardless if they were a part of reality or not, it may be in your interest to act as if you have the same reality issues like them so that you might receive the same advancements offered by society.
Do you think that it would be any different from other societies and the bullshit that they believe?

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote,
Quote:
I think that someone can be (and often is) indoctrinated into a belief before "an age of reasoning".

I don't agree with this conclusion. Our family started out as Buddhist, then converted to Christianity when we were children, ages 1 to 7. I call religion an accident of birth. Generally speaking, children become adherents of their parent's religion - no matter what religion.

Some of us become atheists.

My statement is NOT inconsistent with yours.
Indoctrination does not imply that the beliefs will be permanent ones.

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@MattDavis,

When you say "age of reason," it usually implies a child of 6 to 8 years old. However, people change religions or become athiests during those years beyond the age of reason.

However, it's also true that most become "indoctrinated" by their parents and/or culture.

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@MattDavis,

I am sorry...I did not mean to ramble on...I do that often and apologize...But you got to the root of my questions...thank you...

If you think or believe you have free individual will...And that is a reason why you may be something other than a theist...Why would you feel compelled to answer your co-workers question..."Were you born an atheist"? In a way that implied you thought you had no free individual will? Or no choice in the matter? Or in a way that was meant to just tell them what they wanted to hear? Is there a free will that is impacted, limited, or at any dispositions?

Do you think that believing in a free individual will is consistent with answering your co-worker with a response of "I guess so, I was not born a believer"?

Do you think it is possible that atheism is a form of belief as much as a theism is?

BTW, welcome to A2K!...You can call me Spades if you would like too...

1 Reply

@MattDavis,

Just to give a heads up about so many questions...I post a lot in the quadrilemma theory...Or approach questioning someone from every angle possible...So that there is no answer that they can not give....

In the past, I could feel when I thought people were lying to me...And I try to limit this...

If you understand the Q.T. you will understand my writing style...When I ask a question...I present it in ways where I am giving all angles without going real deep...So if you see me say, if you are an atheist/agnostic/theist etc...You do not have to answer them all if you do not want too...It is just my way of presenting the options, because I had not known the answer previously....

And you will discover that many questions of mine = just a different way of myself presenting the same questions...But from different angles....Or with most angles covered....= the answer to the questions I have asked, in a way I can rationalize all other rejections of the choices I had asked while getting the answer...In short: It is a way for me to understand, and learn...while getting exposed to rational deduction to become more prudent, or insightful...as well as testing answers to affirm, reaffirm perceptions...

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@MattDavis,

Quote:

I think that "the person that they are" is the result of a complex interaction between genetic inheritance and environmental experiences.

Perhaps this will help me understand you as a person for future references...What is free will to you? Or how do you think something can be free based upon complex interactions between genetic inheritances?

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

When you say "age of reason," it usually implies a child of 6 to 8 years old.

OK. Fine by me it wasn't my term to begin with. I used it in responding to a question asked of me using that term. (that's why it is in quotes)

cicerone imposter wrote:

However, people change religions or become athiests during those years beyond the age of reason.

I think that basically is just a rephrasing of what I said.

MattDavis wrote:

I think that once past "an age of reasoning", someone is capable of adopting or abandoning a belief.

cicerone imposter wrote:

However, it's also true that most become "indoctrinated" by their parents and/or culture.

Yep.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

I am sorry...I did not mean to ramble on...I do that often and apologize...But you got to the root of my questions...thank you...

No problem and you're welcome.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

If you think or believe you have free individual will...And that is a reason why you may be something other than a theist...

Well ...I don't think that believing in free will is necessarily incompatible with most versions of theism. However, I do think that believing in a God who actively intervenes in your life does cloud the issue of who is responsible for or is to blame for your actions.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Why would you feel compelled to answer your co-workers question..."Were you born an atheist"? In a way that implied you thought you had no free individual will? Or no choice in the matter? Or in a way that was meant to just tell them what they wanted to hear?

Well... I shared the story because I thought it was a funny anecdote. The humor to me was in that I viewed the original condition of my existence to be a non-belief in gods, while she viewed the original condition to be (at least potentially) a belief in God.
I didn't mean to imply I thought "I had no free individual will." I used the expression "To which I had to reply "..." rather loosely and for narrative effect.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Do you think that believing in a free individual will is consistent with answering your co-worker with a response of "I guess so, I was not born a believer"?

Yes I do think that it is consistent with such an answer, but I don't think such an answer is as funny. Wink

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Do you think it is possible that atheism is a form of belief as much as a theism is?

I think both positions require some beliefs or assumptions. The clause "as much as theism" makes me unable answer in the affirmative to your question. I think that theism requires more assumptions than atheism does. Additionally theistic assumptions include things that could reasonably be observed if they were true. As an analogy if 2 people differ as to whether or not unicorns exist. In order for the non-believer to validate her claim, she would have to look through the entire universe to ensure that there are no unicorns anywhere. The believer merely has to point to any unicorn to validate her claim.

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

BTW, welcome to A2K!...You can call me Spades if you would like too...

Thanks Spades! Very Happy

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

MattDavis wrote:
I think that "the person that they are" is the result of a complex interaction between genetic inheritance and environmental experiences.

Perhaps this will help me understand you as a person for future references...What is free will to you? Or how do you think something can be free based upon complex interactions between genetic inheritances?

I have a much higher degree of uncertainty regarding free will than I do about the existence of God.
I'm getting a little tired, maybe I will elaborate more on it later.
My reasons for believing in free will probably rely for the most part on it's existence making the notion of "self" logically meaningful.
I think that quantum mechanics disproves that the past is an absolute predictor of the future. (If you rolled back the clock a day and then replayed events. The original today would not look exactly same as the new today.)
The future truly is uncertain.
This does not prove a free will, but it is compatible with it.

If the past was absolutely predictive of the future, this would disprove free-will.

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@MattDavis,

OK, have a good night, I will reply this and look for your answers later...I am a little confused...after what you have posted you are more uncertain about free will? And are more likely to believe in the existence of a God? Why would you call yourself an atheist then?

Does it not sound like (to you) that what QM says that free will is more likely than not? And if you think it might be, you think that an existence of a God is even higher? Why would you call yourself an atheist then? Do you call yourself an atheist, because none of these things have been proven? It sounds like you are more inclined to believe both, and God's existence even more, then it does that you are skeptical about both of them, especially God, if what you have said is true...Just because it seems to me that a skeptic would be trying to test what QM says about free will, and whatever source you use to hold the opinion that God's existence is even higher than a skeptic would to call themselves an atheist, and think that they are both probable, and the existence of a God or Gods is even higher...

What about the existence of a God or Gods leads you to believe it is even more realistic then what QM says about free will?

Wait one second, before we go on...And you can reply to this first if true, and avoid all the other questions...Are you an atheist, but believe those 2 things are probable because you are a Buddhist, and would consider yourself apart of an atheistic theology? But acknowledge the existence of Bodhisattva...?

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
And if he's going to quote a skate, I'll quote someone worth reading.
Anyone who believes he owns all the answers is a lunatic. William Burroughs.

Is this also a skate? If so he seems like a logical skate.

Don't be ridiculous, of course Burroughs isn't a skate. Why would you think that? He sounds nothing like a skate.

[quote="RL"I personally think that all of you have shared some very intellectual information on this page but don't you think that we could all be wrong about something.
[/quote]

I get things wrong all the time. I'm not the one trying to convert people. Maybe you should ask Zardoz the same thing. You do find it very hard to challenge anyone of the atheist persuasion.

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@MattDavis,

I am sorry for some of the interpretations/misinterpretation I may have given...I meant to say plausible, and not probable...etc...But after I hear your response, I will try to clarify it more...I try to type to fast for my own fingers...

Few questions though...

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In order for the non-believer to validate her claim, she would have to look through the entire universe to ensure that there are no unicorns anywhere. The believer merely has to point to any unicorn to validate her claim.

Is there any significance why you referred to a female in your above text? Are you the female in the picture? Or is it more likely you were thinking of your female co-workers beliefs in God in the analogy about unicorns opposed to her not believing in God?

I do not mean to pry...I am just curious...

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@MattDavis,

You wrote,

Quote:

The future truly is uncertain.

I believe that's the "key" to our life's experiences whether it's from the influences of our environment or the cause of nature.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Wait one second, before we go on...And you can reply to this first if true, and avoid all the other questions...Are you an atheist, but believe those 2 things are probable because you are a Buddhist, and would consider yourself apart of an atheistic theology? But acknowledge the existence of Bodhisattva...?

I don't believe in any gods.
I would not have many qualms with calling myself an atheist.
I don't believe in a god, because I see no evidence for one.
This is definitely not to say that if provided with evidence I would not change my belief. So if by this qualification you feel a better label is agnostic, that's fine with me too.

I don't consider myself a Buddhist.

I don't think a term "atheistic theology" makes any sense. Theology is the study of God. An atheist doesn't think there is anything to study in theology.

Quote:

Does it not sound like (to you) that what QM says that free will is more likely than not?

My understanding of quantum mechanics is that it is inconsistent with strict determinism. I think that having free will is compatible with strict determinism being false. I think that not having free will is also compatible with with strict determinism being false.
This position is called libertarianism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism_%28metaphysics%29.

As to why I choose to accept that I have free will, rather than accept that I don't have free will:
I don't really have a great reason to choose one over the other.
Having free will seems more in keeping of what I think of as the characteristics of a "self", but there is not really any way to distinguish free will from the illusion of free will.

1 Reply

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Few questions though...

MattDavis wrote:
In order for the non-believer to validate her claim, she would have to look through the entire universe to ensure that there are no unicorns anywhere. The believer merely has to point to any unicorn to validate her claim.

Is there any significance why you referred to a female in your above text? Are you the female in the picture? Or is it more likely you were thinking of your female co-workers beliefs in God in the analogy about unicorns opposed to her not believing in God?

I do not mean to pry...I am just curious...

I think you are reading way more into this than I intended.
I think, in that case I used two separate genders for the hypothetical participants in a dialogue in order to conveniently distinguish them linguistically. I didn't intend for the which gender I assigned to which person in the dialogue, to have any other significance. Maybe there is some subconscious reason for it, but not a conscious one that I can recall.

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@MattDavis,

I thank you for your first post towards myself. It really did help me understand your positions a bit more clear. It sounds to me that you are close to an agnostic, (like you have said you have no problem with me calling you) but would you maybe call yourself an agnostic-atheist? I can see your views, but I will be honest. I am a theist, but I firmly believe that atheism is a belief that Gods do not exist...Not any rejection, as a rejection = not knowing or uncertain in my own opinions...I think to even be skeptical it still takes one to have a belief about Gods in order to know and understand that they do not believe that any exist...Or rationalize the concept of non-existence itself...And a rejection = nothing or inconclusive views...I also believe, that I do not believe that any Gods exist = I believe that no Gods exist...etc...And my point is that you seem to be open to optimism which I would say that the true agnostic position seems to be the most objective from the 3. (But I do have my doubts as to whether being uncertain is not a belief of being uncertain itself...etc) But my point is, (with no disrespect) that you seem to be a very objective person, with an open mind...In the sense of an agnostic...But at the same time it seems that you have at least some types of rational subjective thoughts about the plausibility/somewhat, sparsely, not measurable, introspective stances that leads me to believe I understand why you say you are an atheist...But I think it does prove my above point about beliefs about Gods...I would not say it is a theology like you have pointed out...But I would say it looks to have a religious connotations or aspects that probably can not be accurately defined yet in modern comparative, equivalent terms...Mainly because of the way it is designated, it appears to me it can not be pinned to any of those labels...by definition, but I do not think it is hard to actually see these similar comparisons...

Do you think an agnostic-atheist is a better self description of yourself? Or would you say it is not, because there are more notions you have formulated rational self perspective understandings about while being open minded as to being unsure? Like an agnostic may claim...Or, (my views) the persona they generally give off, in claiming to be unsure, or having rejections of both sides...

In short: If you would not call yourself an agnostic-atheist position opposed to just an atheistic one...Could you explain why you think that you see yourself this way, in a way that shows it is because of rejections? Skepticism? Lacks? Doubts? Scrutiny? etc, rather than beliefs, notions, opinions, thoughts, ideas, I think I know, My experiences, My views...etc...

And if you would say you are probably closer to an agnostic-atheist than just an atheist, or just an agnostic, I then have some questions for that position to follow as I am sure you can already perceive what some of them may be...

If you are willing try to perceive those questions, pertaining to an agnostic-atheist position rather than either atheist, or agnostic, Do you think you would have a pretty good idea of what some of those questions I may ask would be? From the ways I have just typed this post? And lastly, if you think you could or are capable even if acknowledging you could be incorrect...Would you still claim your positions are based upon rejections, or lacks, doubts, skepticism, etc, rather than what you think you do know, or believe? Can you understand my positions about atheism from a theistic view? Why would you say it is more correct or less correct, if you think it may be? Would you be able to explain those answers in lacks and doubts? Or views, opinions and beliefs?

I am sorry, this post was a bit long...You do not have to constant quote, and answer, I know how long that takes...You can post one long one out if you want, and I will break yours down for you and I...Or you can just answer the most prevalent questions I have asked, and you can be very selective if you wish, and if you miss one or two in general I would like you to answer. I will re-quote it, and rephrase it...

Thanks a lot Matt! Very Happy

BTW...I grew up with a kid named Matt Davis... Wink

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Atheists... Your life is pointless

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