Atheists... Your life is pointless

@izzythepush,

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At the end of the day the wisest thing to do would be to agree to differ and move on.

Where to? This whole debate is about where to move to. There's nothing to be done about this instant or the past. If we all agree to differ we become motionless. Catatonic. Where do we move on to if we are agreeing to differ?

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@spendius,

This is quite a broad topic, Krumple and I were disgreeing over the minutiae of one particular aspect. That's what I want to move on from, not the topic.

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@Rockhead,

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you mean deeds like the crusades?

No. I think he means more decent stuff...like witch trials, the inquisition, and the tough love of good men like Torquemada and Savanarola.

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@Rockhead,

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you mean deeds like the crusades?

I meant documents purporting to describe such events. Some of our documentation concerning similar events are under scrutiny in the Wikileaks case. And, it is to be hoped, in the normal course of events. All documents have an aura of vested interest about them.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

No. I think he means more decent stuff...like witch trials, the inquisition, and the tough love of good men like Torquemada and Savanarola.

Author Cullen Murphy has written a book about how The Spanish Inquisition influences modern day America.

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In this week's Meet the Author, the BBC's Nick Higham speaks to Cullen Murphy about his novel God's Jury: The Inquisition and the Making of the Modern World.

The journalist explores the possible influences of the Roman Catholic Inquisitions in modern day America.

http://www.digitalhen.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-16971747

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@Frank Apisa,

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No. I think he means more decent stuff...like witch trials, the inquisition, and the tough love of good men like Torquemada and Savanarola.

Isn't it about time such a trite, drivellous and pointless argument was humanely put down. One might think, on such an infantile argument, that the USA would hand back the land it took over by methods those guys couldn't even imagine and in terms of either scope or range.

What would you do without them Frank? Had they never done whatever it is you believe they had done, not being agnostic about such things, depending on the direction of the wind, would you then conclude that God exists.

What was a witch Frank? Is Brad Manning in the hands of a modern Inquisition. You're confusing the zeitgeist of our times with that of a previous period about which you know near enough to nothing as makes no difference. The proper way to milk is to get a three-legged stool and sit at the side of the cow and pull on the udders and squeeze.

You are drawing attention to your compassionate nature. Again. Suggesting that had you lived then you would not have been in the crowd watching the ghastly events with approval.

From the way some of you go on one might think you would have been at the front dancing with glee and partying.

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@spendius,

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Isn't it about time such a trite, drivellous and pointless argument was humanely put down.

Could be. I don't actually think my comments are all those things, but if you think they are, are you up to the job of putting them down humanely?

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One might think, on such an infantile argument, that the USA would hand back the land it took over by methods those guys couldn't even imagine and in terms of either scope or range.

Jeez, Spendius, all the “infantile argument” that I made was that I did not think you were referring to the crusades (and you said you were not)…and that I thought (just that I thought) you might be referring to things like witch trials, the inquisition, and the tough love of good men like Torquemada and Savanarola.

Not sure why you are asking me about giving back lands. Quite honestly, I do not even know what lands you are talking about.

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What would you do without them Frank? Had they never done whatever it is you believe they had done, not being agnostic about such things, depending on the direction of the wind, would you then conclude that God exists.

I don't understand what you are saying here.

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You are drawing attention to your compassionate nature. Again. Suggesting that had you lived then you would not have been in the crowd watching the ghastly events with approval.

Really? Where did I do that? Quote exactly where I did this anywhere in this post.

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From the way some of you go on one might think you would have been at the front dancing with glee and partying.

Huh?

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@izzythepush,

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Author Cullen Murphy has written a book about how The Spanish Inquisition influences modern day America.

Thanks, Izzy, I will try to give that a read. Right now I am busy trying to understand what Spendius is saying to me...and that is using up most of my attention.

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@Frank Apisa,

The link leads to an interview with Cullen. I saw it on BBC News 24 a few days ago. I've not read the book, just watched the interview.

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@izzythepush,

I watched it, Izzy. It is a very interesting interview...both the questioner and Murphy are very articulate people. I may get the book, because Murphy does not seem like a slash and burn individual...and seems to be giving the topic a fair hearing and analysis--something all to infrequent in today's contentious, ideological society.

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@Frank Apisa,

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Could be. I don't actually think my comments are all those things, but if you think they are, are you up to the job of putting them down humanely?[/quote[

It depends how much they struggle.

[quote]Jeez, Spendius, all the “infantile argument” that I made was that I did not think you were referring to the crusades (and you said you were not)…and that I thought (just that I thought) you might be referring to things like witch trials, the inquisition, and the tough love of good men like Torquemada and Savanarola.

Yeah. Alright. It's my suspicious mind thinking that you will go to any lengths to point the finger at the Church and remind viewers of it's evil deeds, without which our world would not be, as, indeed, you again did in that reply. I never mentioned any specific evil deeds. I have waded through the extreme turgidities of the Malleus Maleficarum to uncover the truth of all that stuff. And a lot else.

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Not sure why you are asking me about giving back lands. Quite honestly, I do not even know what lands you are talking about.

Those lands that were taken by enough men to have no notorious names and who made Torquemada and Savanarola look like angels in the Christmas crib at the junior school.

A papal bull by Pope Sixtus IV dating from early 1482 (before Torquemada's appointment as Grand Inquisitor), affirmed that--

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many true and faithful Christians, because of the testimony of enemies, rivals, slaves and other low people—and still less appropriate—without tests of any kind, have been locked up in secular prisons, tortured and condemned like relapsed heretics, deprived of their goods and properties, and given over to the secular arm to be executed, at great danger to their souls, giving a pernicious example and causing scandal to many.

So the Church was critical of him too. And Papal Bulls come down to us intact.

As to the other one of your battering rams-

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On May 13, 1497, Savonarola was excommunicated by Pope Alexander VI, and in 1498, Alexander demanded his arrest and execution.

Get a grip Frank. You're just using those names as smears because you anticipate an audience as ignorant as you are on such matters.

If you don't know what this is saying

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What would you do without them Frank? Had they never done whatever it is you believe they had done, not being agnostic about such things, depending on the direction of the wind, would you then conclude that God exists?

I'm at a loss for words.

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Really? Where did I do that? Quote exactly where I did this anywhere in this post.

A nod's as good as a wink to a blind horse. It is so common on A2K that I invented an acronym for it. RIC. The reverse invidious comparison. One declares how awful something is to allay any suspicion that one might do, or have done, similar things. Duchesses who began their career as an actress or a dancer are very prone to deploying the RIC. You do it all the time. It's not all that subtle.

As Auberon Waugh once said--"the more a house guest talks of his honesty the faster we count the spoons." No doubt the dowager duchess with the most notorious career as an actress will declaim the puritan ethic with some force.

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Huh?

Fashion for yourself a hierarchy of worth where you are. Place yourself in position. Then imagine a similar position in the worth hierarchy of the 15th century given the tendency I see on here to get worked up.

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@Frank Apisa,

Why I liked was when Murphy was talking about waterboarding, and Cheney's insistance that it wasn't torture, compared to the Inquisition quite happily calling it torture.

Nick Higham does an interview with a faily decent writer every week. There's probably further links on the link I gave you to his other interviews. They're not all my cup of tea though.

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@spendius,

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It depends how much they struggle.

Put up a decent argument…and there won’t be a struggle.

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Yeah. Alright. It's my suspicious mind thinking that you will go to any lengths to point the finger at the Church and remind viewers of it's evil deeds, without which our world would not be, as, indeed, you again did in that reply.

Spendius, what the hell does that mean?

I understand that you have a suspicious mind. I do point out many of the evils of which the Church has been part…although I definitely will not go "to any lengths" to do that. Luckily, I do not have to go very far, because there is plenty within easy reach to choose from.

As to the “…without which our world would not be, as, indeed, you again did in that reply…”

I have absolutely no idea of what that means. I cannot reassemble those words into anything meaningful or coherent. Try again…and I will respond.

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I never mentioned any specific evil deeds. I have waded through the extreme turgidities of the Malleus Maleficarumto uncover the truth of all that stuff. And a lot else.

So…I did mention some “deeds” that I consider evil. What is the problem?

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A nod's as good as a wink to a blind horse. It is so common on A2K that I invented an acronym for it. RIC. The reverse invidious comparison. One declares how awful something is to allay any suspicion that one might do, or have done, similar things. Duchesses who began their career as an actress or a dancer are very prone to deploying the RIC. You do it all the time. It's not all that subtle.

Don't know what the hell you are talking about here. I am satisfied with myself as a person...I am happy within my own skin. If that bothers you, not much I can do about it.

I am not sanctimonious...if that is what you are inferring. On the other hand, you at times are insufferably sanctimonious.

I'll get to the rest of your post when we clear these things up.

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@Frank Apisa,

Do these opinions go all the way down the middle with every situation or circumstance? Or is it just things pertaining to theists, and atheists??

In other words, if confronted with having an abortion, what position would you take? If confronted with getting a divorce, or giving up parental rights to your children, what would you think, and or do?? As far as Morality, do you believe religious are wrong? As far as science, do you believe it is possible, or impossible to try to "disprove" a god...Or do you think it can be done??

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Would you give me some idea of why you want the answers to those questions.? How will it impact on the fact that my personal position on the question of the existence of gods and the reality of life after death—is as I said?

I cannot see how the answers to those questions could impact on my feeling with regard to those two things…and I just want to be sure why we are into abortion, divorce, parental rights at this point in the discussion. If you have a reason why these other items are important at this time, I will answer.

You do not have to answer those questions...It was just purported as a way of saying does your personal beliefs/lack of beliefs, are down the middle, and ONLY down the middle when subjects pertain to the Atheism/Theism??

Or are there other things that you consider, Certain to be down the middle about?? Different that that of a belief/lack of belief??

In other words, I think I totally understand the down the middle thing, pertaining to belief/lack of belief...What do you do, or think concerning things that would cause you to make a choice rather than being split?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

In other words, if confronted with having an abortion, what position would you take?

I'd tell them they were making a terrible mistake. I'm a man, I think Frank is too.

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@Frank Apisa,

spendi wrote,

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“…without which our world would not be, as, indeed, you again did in that reply…”

I don't know what happens to spendi on those occasions when he slaughters the English language to smithereens where nobody can make out what he's trying to say. It's funny and interesting, because spendi has above average language skills most of the time.

Maybe, it's because he tries to write after having a few at the local pub. Mr. Green

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

SpadeMaster, I honestly do not think I am in the middle.

There either are gods or there are no gods. There is no middle there.

My position is that I do not know if there are gods or are no gods...and that I do not have enough unambiguous evidence upon which to make a meaningful guess.

That is not a "middle position" at all. Please abandon the idea that I am in the middle.

There are some things I do KNOW…or at least, know the way most of us use the word know.

Examples: I know 2+2=4; I know my name is Frank Apisa; I know I am typing at the keyboard of my computer; I know there are no elephants in the room in which I am working. I know there is a book called The Bible that purports to tell us gods exist; which tells us the nature of one of those gods; and which tells us what pleases the god and what offends it. (Some can get pedantic and claim I actually do not know this stuff…but if we can agree on “know” in the sense I just illustrated, that would move the discussion along.)

There are some instances where I do not KNOW a thing…but I feel there is enough evidence upon which to base a guess. If I make a guess about it…I identify it as a guess—and I acknowledge that it may be a WRONG guess. I acknowledge that some of the “evidence” is more persuasive than other “evidence”…but once again, I acknowledge that I may be wrong when I make a guess based this way.

Examples: I do not KNOW how long the Earth has existed, but there is lots of evidence that it has existed for billions of years…and I guess that the age of the Earth is several billions of years old. I do not KNOW that the great dinosaurs died out before humans were truly humans, but there is lots of evidence that this is so…and I guess it to be so. I do not KNOW humans developed in a slow progression from lesser creatures to homo sapiens, but there is lots of evidence this is what happened…and I guess that it did happen that way.

And finally, there are some instances where I do not KNOW a thing…and there is no evidence that I can see to persuade me to guess about it.

Examples: I do not KNOW there are no gods; there is no probative evidence that there are none…and I will not make a guess that there are none. I do not KNOW there are gods (or a GOD); there is no probative evidence that there are gods or is a GOD…and I will not make a guess there are gods or there is a GOD. I do not KNOW if there is “life after death”; there is no probative evidence there is…and I will not guess there is. I do not KNOW there is nothing after death; there is no probative evidence there is nothing…and I will not guess there is nothing.

In other words, I think I totally understand the down the middle thing, pertaining to belief/lack of belief...What do you do, or think concerning things that would cause you to make a choice rather than being split?

Well, as I said, I am not in the middle and I am not split. If your question is changed to reflect that and becomes: What would change your mind to make a guess on any of those things you will not guess on?…

…my answer would be: It would take some reasonable, unambiguous evidence in one direction or the other.

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@Frank Apisa,

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Put up a decent argument…and there won’t be a struggle.

As if a baby assertion like that is proof that I have not put forward any decent arguments. You can't even respond to them. "Huh". "What does that mean?" "I can't understand". Bollocks.

My arguments are not intended for you Frank. There's no shifting you. And I have a few more. Some of them not very decent at all.

Tell me what Torquie and Savvie have to do with your views? Tell me what any evil deeds have to do with it?

Your blustering is pathetic. Just read through the two posts you are pretending to respond to. Carefully. Then try again. If you are going to trot out that gibberish don't expect me to swoon.

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@cicerone imposter,

This was the sentence ci--

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It's my suspicious mind thinking that you will go to any lengths to point the finger at the Church and remind viewers of it's evil deeds, without which our world would not be, as, indeed, you again did in that reply.

It's not difficult to understand. Frank scrambled it for reasons of his own. Nothing to do with me.

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@spendius,

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As if a baby assertion like that is proof that I have not put forward any decent arguments. You can't even respond to them. "Huh". "What does that mean?" "I can't understand". Bollocks.

I have not asserted you do not put out decent arguments--in fact, I am willing to acknowledge that at times you make very decent arguments. I've seconded several of them over the years.

In this case, you mentioned something specific…and I replied to that specific, Spendius.

But just because you have made decent arguments in the past does not mean you ALWAYS make decent arguments. I have no way of knowing if an argument is decent or not until I hear it.

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My arguments are not intended for you Frank. There's no shifting you. And I have a few more. Some of them not very decent at all.

You directed a comment to me which seemed a question…I replied.

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Tell me what Torquie and Savvie have to do with your views? Tell me what any evil deeds have to do with it?

Are you on a nickname basis with Torquemada and Savanarola, Spendius? You must be older than I thought.

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Your blustering is pathetic. Just read through the two posts you are pretending to respond to. Carefully. Then try again. If you are going to trot out that gibberish don't expect me to swoon.

No need for that "pathetic" nonsense. And please do not swoon, Spendius. Please don't. Especially not at the Pub, because no doubt they would consider it “passing out” rather than “swooning.” Don't want your reputation harmed because of a discussion like this.

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Atheists... Your life is pointless

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