neophoenix, your perspective was really enlightening for me too...Thank you for your words.
First of all, thank you,cicerone imposter, for helping me draw out my missing point. I think James84 feels so painful because he has already started "the progress". I still feel like a guest here in Australia^^ What I try to suggest is going to China, not going back to China. Being alone outside helps to find one's edge and he can make a comparison by himself. And I am not complaining about anything though the tone may sound squeaky at some place. Sometimes, the truth itself sounds squeaky^^b
And you are welcome spunkymonkey, what I do is simply putting some colour pictures in your frame. I should thank you in the first place^^
And...some extra notes, Shanghai's property has just experienced a strong boom. With her fame spreading, comes not only attention but investment in the property market. 3 or 5 years ago, it was a totally different picture. Best wishes for the people who try to get their starter home...
In truth - sadly - people from other countries will find some Australians are xenophobic. Enough Australians are xenophobic to make people from other countries who come here to live feel quite put upon. Why this happens I have no idea. But it does. The only comfort - little comfort - I can give is that it passes. Jamesw84 - you will come up against people who will take a set against you simply because of your race. I'm sorry that has and will happen. But you have been given some very good advice here and I certainly can't improve on it. Try not to dwell on it, every country has its ignorant fools, perhaps we have more per capita but I doubt it.
neophoenix wrote:First of all, thank you,cicerone imposter, for helping me draw out my missing point. I think James84 feels so painful because he has already started "the progress". I still feel like a guest here in Australia^^ What I try to suggest is going to China, not going back to China. Being alone outside helps to find one's edge and he can make a comparison by himself. And I am not complaining about anything though the tone may sound squeaky at some place. Sometimes, the truth itself sounds squeaky^^b
And you are welcome spunkymonkey, what I do is simply putting some colour pictures in your frame. I should thank you in the first place^^
And...some extra notes, Shanghai's property has just experienced a strong boom. With her fame spreading, comes not only attention but investment in the property market. 3 or 5 years ago, it was a totally different picture. Best wishes for the people who try to get their starter home...
The property market is even more horrendous in Australia, particular in Sydney. You will never find a decent house to live in anywhere close to the city for less than 600 000 Australian dollars. Considering how expensive everything is in Australia, your daily living expenses will eat up all of your money. This is what my parents complain about every single day. We completely own our own house, but my parents money gets eaten away by the council fees, gas, electricity, food, drinks, phone bill, etc etc which leaves very little left for anything type of satisfaction. I believe it is true to say that the quality of life gap between Shanghai and that of Sydney have well converged over the last 13 or so years that I have been away for. I just had relatives over from Shanghai and they didnt see our quality of life as any better than theirs back home. IT seems that all my relatives there are doing very well, and all the people my parents knew back there are all enjoying life, like theres virtually nobody living below the poverty line. Because everyone there has property they inherit or they live with their parents, they have no worries about buying a house until well off into the future.
A graduate in Sydney earns about 600 dollars a week, it would take about 30 years to repay a 600 000 loan dont u think?
goodfielder wrote:In truth - sadly - people from other countries will find some Australians are xenophobic. Enough Australians are xenophobic to make people from other countries who come here to live feel quite put upon. Why this happens I have no idea. But it does. The only comfort - little comfort - I can give is that it passes. Jamesw84 - you will come up against people who will take a set against you simply because of your race. I'm sorry that has and will happen. But you have been given some very good advice here and I certainly can't improve on it. Try not to dwell on it, every country has its ignorant fools, perhaps we have more per capita but I doubt it.
The australian government for example is the perfect xenophobic type you just mentioned. They changed the entry requirement for MEDICINE to include a "UMAT" test as well as an interview to prevent an all asian takeover of the doctors field through the old entry scheme purely based on UAI score of above 99.75. The government just cant handle the upper class of the predominant white society to be overrun by minority ASIANs, so what next? put an interview to screen commerce students, actuarial students? It is truly pathetic indeed...
There was in fact once where I was deeply offended by this country, when this telemarketer rang up and rudely asked me if I owned my house or rented it. He said this without even introducing who he was so I asked him if I knew him. Then he ignored me and kept asking the same question. So I hung up. Then he rang back and said to me "listen my asian friend, I dont particularly like you, if you hang up again ill come over and pull your nose,", then he asked me "why dont you go back to where u came from" to end his insult. These people have made me make a series of conclusions about this country and its people. About how obnoxiously racist they are, and it makes me feel sad to hear stuff like this. IF I was back in Shanghai I would never have to tolerate this kind of crap anytime through my whole life. I simply wouldnt even have to contemplate these type of experiences. By moving to Australia I have to deal with a lot of distressing emotional traumas that I would never experience in my native country. So thats why I feel angry abou t it. I would never have to adapt to a new way of life, a way of dealing with insults because there would never be insults of this nature in the first place. My father's split second irrational decision has caused me so much pain and grief in this country, its just not worth it, whats the good of gaining so much more material possesions in this country, but only to lose your soul? There is significant statistical evidence to suggest although China has a much lower overall purchasing power than Australia, its people are much more happier on a happy scale, and it proves that money is not the root of happiness, its the sense of worthiness in this world and living a meaningful life, being able to belong in a society in which you inhabit. I will try to work on my ideas about viewing myself as an outsider, but I see this as a long and difficult road that leads deep deep into the future, god knows how many years this will take ..
James, Your mention of Asian economic progress was hampered for many generations in the US, but for the past two or three decades, Asians have become the most successful in America. Our average income exceeds those of whites and other minorities according to published reports.
Asian economic progress was successful because the majority of Asians do well in school. The top schools like UC Berkeley where competition to get in is steep are mostly Asians even though Asians as a percentage of the total population is still relatively small. That translates into success in their careers and income.
Just in our family, we have the following:
My older brother was an administrative judge in CA.
My younger brother is an opthalmologist and state legislator.
My younger sister is an RN.
Most of my older brother's children now work for the state. His oldest son is a principal of a school back east.
My younger brother's children; oldest daugher is an opthalmologist, younger daughter has a PhD in special education, and his son is an attorney.
My younger sister's children: two oldest are physicians, third son is a dentist, and the youngest daugher has a PhD in chemistry from UCLA.
Our two sons: oldest has a masters in communication science, and the younger son is six units away from earning his degree in psychology - all A's and B's.
My wife's side of the family; her older brother is a dentist, her sister was a teacher, and her younger brother has a masters from UC Davis. He is now the director of a government department in Monterey County, and he retired from the US Air Force as a lt colonel after 20 years.
Education is the key to economic success.
That was a common refrain in the US too: "why don't you go back where you came from!" Total ignorance; all Americans are immigrants from another country except for the American Indian. We don't hear that any more, so we just assume it went underground. Most people in America no longer tolerates racial bigots.
For us, our grandfather came to this country in 1893. We're more American than many that came after our grandfather.
Don't let ignorance bother you; otherwise they win.
James, why not visit China, indeed Shanghai?
One of the things that has intrigued me about your thread is wondering whether you are aware of China's traditional rather extreme racism?
Having worked in a Chinese restaurant for a number of years, I have experienced this very first hand, but also, a number of friends of mine have lived and worked in China, teaching English. They even had some of their black African students murdered by a Chinese mob, who were affronted by such people being in their country. Oters have married Chinese people, and then their are my Chinese friends.
Racism is a very common thing, in Asian cultures as well as western ones.
Where countries like Oz are different is that they are countries which encourage immigration by people of different races, and hence there is more of a responsibility in such countries to fight it, but the stupid and ignorant we have always with us, in every culture.
I worry for you that you seem unable to engage with where you are living.
It is terrible that you had such experiences, though I do wonder if the rich Chinese were as awful to you as you feel, or if you sort of excluded yourself?
It's funny, I was chatting to a man from Shanghai yesterday and we were discussing that city.
Do you speak the Shanghai dialect, by the way? You seem agitated and hateful about any diversion from Mandarin, and this fella was saying that northern Chinese cannot understand Shanghai dialict.
Anyhoo, why not stop dreaming about China and see it?
You need to settle SOMEWHERE.....and I notice that some restless folk return to the country they, or their parents came from, love it, and stay.
Others revisit, or visit for the first time, realise they are, in the end, Australians, and come back and feel good about being here.
If you DO come back, why stay in Sydney if you find it too expensive?
Sydney, like lots of big cities, only really works for you if you are rich.
Other Oz cities have Chinese communities, too, albeit smaller.
50, 000 in my city, for instance (which sounds VERY small, until you realise we are less than one and a half million!)
I know there can be snobbish divisiions in Chinese communities about where you come from, etc....but surely there must be places other than Sydney you can live if you decide to stay here?
dlowan is correct; there are discrimination in most countries of the world. I find the Japanese in Japan to be one of the worst for treating immigrants badly, and even their own kind based on social rank.
My friend passed away about four years ago, but he experienced the same discrimination from Chinese in the US, because he spoke Shanghai Mandarin that many Chinese do not understand. Even I noticed the difference on my two visits to China between the people of Beijing and the people of Shanghai. It really does sound different to the ear. I believe the Shanghai langauge was influenced by the cosmopolitan environment from many generations ago. The same thing happened in Osaka, Japan. Their language takes on a special business language that is only common to people in Osaka, and doesn't sound like Japanese at all. I'm sure many countries experience the same thing in their spoken language.
James, I realise that it is difficult not to compare yourself to others, particularly when you are not in the majority, racially, of those which you see around you. What I so wish that you would realize is that you are blessed simply to have so many of the things that you do.
Wondering "what if" will get you nowhere, because there will always be someone who is richer, smarter, more beautiful etc. If you have this mentality, you will forever be dissapointed. I agree that there are racist attitudes in Australia...against Chinese, African, Muslim etc etc etc.
to quote this "IF I was back in Shanghai I would never have to tolerate this kind of crap anytime through my whole life." you don't know that! Who is to say that you would not have run into a racist tourist, or teacher, or even someone from an upper class suburb who would look down on you? The point is, life will do that to you! If it isn't race, then it is weight, or height, or mannerisims, or certain disabilites...If people have it in their head to judge others, they will find something to judge...Some people are just jerks like that!
You have a right to feel angry. Everyone has the right to feel whatever the hell they want to...However I think you need to decide how much of your life and energy you want to devote to those feelings. You can be angry your whole life, as hard and as bitter as you want, and you know what? IT WON"T CHANGE ANYTHING! The only thing you can change is you. The only person who you have power over is you.
Use your education. Find a place that feels like home. Reflect on your experiences, learn from them. Vent. Then move on with your life and be happy. You aren't promised another day...quit wasting the ones you have on this bitterness and resentment. You deserve better.
cicerone imposter wrote:James, Your mention of Asian economic progress was hampered for many generations in the US, but for the past two or three decades, Asians have become the most successful in America. Our average income exceeds those of whites and other minorities according to published reports.
Asian economic progress was successful because the majority of Asians do well in school. The top schools like UC Berkeley where competition to get in is steep are mostly Asians even though Asians as a percentage of the total population is still relatively small. That translates into success in their careers and income.
Just in our family, we have the following:
My older brother was an administrative judge in CA.
My younger brother is an opthalmologist and state legislator.
My younger sister is an RN.
Most of my older brother's children now work for the state. His oldest son is a principal of a school back east.
My younger brother's children; oldest daugher is an opthalmologist, younger daughter has a PhD in special education, and his son is an attorney.
My younger sister's children: two oldest are physicians, third son is a dentist, and the youngest daugher has a PhD in chemistry from UCLA.
Our two sons: oldest has a masters in communication science, and the younger son is six units away from earning his degree in psychology - all A's and B's.
My wife's side of the family; her older brother is a dentist, her sister was a teacher, and her younger brother has a masters from UC Davis. He is now the director of a government department in Monterey County, and he retired from the US Air Force as a lt colonel after 20 years.
Education is the key to economic success.
It looks like the only profession missing in your family repoitoir is the Actuary, which is what I will become soon
james re the doctors - if you accept that the various doctors unions are the most powerful trade unions in Australia you can work out why they act like they do - supply and demand, simple as that.
I have a very good friend (Anglo like me) who is married to a Chinese (Hokkien) woman who was born in Malaysia. She has told me numerous times of the racism by the Malaysian government against Chinese in Malaysia. That doesn't make whatever happens in Australia right, it just puts it in perspective somewhat.
dlowan wrote:James, why not visit China, indeed Shanghai?
One of the things that has intrigued me about your thread is wondering whether you are aware of China's traditional rather extreme racism?
Having worked in a Chinese restaurant for a number of years, I have experienced this very first hand, but also, a number of friends of mine have lived and worked in China, teaching English. They even had some of their black African students murdered by a Chinese mob, who were affronted by such people being in their country. Oters have married Chinese people, and then their are my Chinese friends.
Racism is a very common thing, in Asian cultures as well as western ones.
Where countries like Oz are different is that they are countries which encourage immigration by people of different races, and hence there is more of a responsibility in such countries to fight it, but the stupid and ignorant we have always with us, in every culture.
I worry for you that you seem unable to engage with where you are living.
It is terrible that you had such experiences, though I do wonder if the rich Chinese were as awful to you as you feel, or if you sort of excluded yourself?
It's funny, I was chatting to a man from Shanghai yesterday and we were discussing that city.
Do you speak the Shanghai dialect, by the way? You seem agitated and hateful about any diversion from Mandarin, and this fella was saying that northern Chinese cannot understand Shanghai dialict.
Anyhoo, why not stop dreaming about China and see it?
You need to settle SOMEWHERE.....and I notice that some restless folk return to the country they, or their parents came from, love it, and stay.
Others revisit, or visit for the first time, realise they are, in the end, Australians, and come back and feel good about being here.
If you DO come back, why stay in Sydney if you find it too expensive?
Sydney, like lots of big cities, only really works for you if you are rich.
Other Oz cities have Chinese communities, too, albeit smaller.
50, 000 in my city, for instance (which sounds VERY small, until you realise we are less than one and a half million!)
I know there can be snobbish divisiions in Chinese communities about where you come from, etc....but surely there must be places other than Sydney you can live if you decide to stay here?
As I make these posts and read your insightful replies I begin to realise something within me that has remained hidden for many many years. I have pondered going on a trip back to Shanghai some time next year, and have thought about how I would feel among them. Would i feel the same sort of alienation that I feel as I walk the streets of Sydney? Or would it be worse because of my own shame for my own kind? Through the last few days I have begun to realise that I am indeed ashamed of my own kind. Through all the chidhood and adolescent racism and discrimination against me because of where I come from and because of my socioeconomic background, I have been made to feel ashamed of myself and those who are from the same background. As I walk around campus, I am scared to associate with international students from the common background as I for fear of being looked down upon by the local students. I have this idea in my head that people look down on me and my kind, because its been done to me over and over throughout my life here in Sydney. I dont know what it will take to change my own views, perhaps I am in serious need of professional help.
I was driving home this afternoon. I whizzed along Port Road and then into North Terrace and zipped along one of the one-way streets that connect North Terrace and Hindley Street and which bisect the west city campus of my old alma mater. I saw a bus in front of me at the junction between the little side street I was on and Hindley. The bus was doing its curtsey thing (thank you dlowan). I slowed down thinking that there would be people getting off the bus and crossing the little street in front of the bus and unable to see me in my car. I slowed because I just knew someone would walk out in front.
They did. Three of them. They were all Chinese students from the uni.
They froze. I stopped. We looked at each other. I invited them to walk across.
We smiled and waved at each other.
Call me an idiot but that little bit of mutual courtesy and acknowledgement cheered me up (I had a really crappy afternoon).
James - take people as you find them and they will take you as they find you. And never feel less of yourself for any damn reason at all.
Jamesw84 wrote:
As I make these posts and read your insightful replies I begin to realise something within me that has remained hidden for many many years. I have pondered going on a trip back to Shanghai some time next year, and have thought about how I would feel among them. Would i feel the same sort of alienation that I feel as I walk the streets of Sydney? Or would it be worse because of my own shame for my own kind? Through the last few days I have begun to realise that I am indeed ashamed of my own kind. Through all the chidhood and adolescent racism and discrimination against me because of where I come from and because of my socioeconomic background, I have been made to feel ashamed of myself and those who are from the same background. As I walk around campus, I am scared to associate with international students from the common background as I for fear of being looked down upon by the local students. I have this idea in my head that people look down on me and my kind, because its been done to me over and over throughout my life here in Sydney. I dont know what it will take to change my own views, perhaps I am in serious need of professional help.
How would you feel back in ShangHai? Most likely also alienated. Most oversees students I see trying to re-integrate back into an asian culture will also have a hard time being accepted.
If I may suggest reading Chinese culture and literature in an appreciation for a long , insightful, rich traditions there is much to be proud of. Perhaps it is a feeling that you need to "belong" and be accepted that drives you to feel embaressed of your background and choose your friends on how you think people will percieve you. In reality, people will have less respect for someone they thinks is "selling out" just to be accepted.
There will be times you will have racist experiences, probably the same people who pick on anyone who is different to themselves, small minded , insecure and intellectally dim people. Belive it or not, they are in all countries and societies and in about the same proportion. The only difference is that if its your society you can be one of them too or blend in and be unnoticed. But in either case, they are not people I have the slightest respect for , nor any desire to assosiate with. The people that matter to me are my family and friends I choose and thier opinions and comments do matter to me (not the thoughts and comments of a stranger, at least you try not to , as I understand you can't block them out , but understanding these people are disturbed will help, try to pity them ).
Michael-S, Your observations concerning expats trying to reintengrate into their culture after living abroad was one of the biggest problems for Japanese businessmen - especially their children.
It's probably not as harsh today as it was a few generations ago, but the children were not accepted back by the other children when they returned to Japan, because they picked up the habits of their host country.
I believe these biases will change with time - even in China.
James, since you ask, and since you appear to feel so badly about yourself, I would say that a good therapist might well be able to help you to overcome your distress and your unhelpful ways of thinking.
They cannot make your experiences go away, but they may well be able to help you to have them have much less effect on the way you think and feel.
You have experienced trauma, and good therapy has much to offer for traumatised people.
spunkymonkey wrote:James, I realise that it is difficult not to compare yourself to others, particularly when you are not in the majority, racially, of those which you see around you. What I so wish that you would realize is that you are blessed simply to have so many of the things that you do.
Wondering "what if" will get you nowhere, because there will always be someone who is richer, smarter, more beautiful etc. If you have this mentality, you will forever be dissapointed. I agree that there are racist attitudes in Australia...against Chinese, African, Muslim etc etc etc.
to quote this "IF I was back in Shanghai I would never have to tolerate this kind of crap anytime through my whole life." you don't know that! Who is to say that you would not have run into a racist tourist, or teacher, or even someone from an upper class suburb who would look down on you? The point is, life will do that to you! If it isn't race, then it is weight, or height, or mannerisims, or certain disabilites...If people have it in their head to judge others, they will find something to judge...Some people are just jerks like that!
You have a right to feel angry. Everyone has the right to feel whatever the hell they want to...However I think you need to decide how much of your life and energy you want to devote to those feelings. You can be angry your whole life, as hard and as bitter as you want, and you know what? IT WON"T CHANGE ANYTHING! The only thing you can change is you. The only person who you have power over is you.
Use your education. Find a place that feels like home. Reflect on your experiences, learn from them. Vent. Then move on with your life and be happy. You aren't promised another day...quit wasting the ones you have on this bitterness and resentment. You deserve better.
I have this idea that Ive developed since childhood, that everybody around is very judgemental, that they are constantly judging my behaviour and judging my worth as a person. Am I really paranoid and my worries are just irrational? I dont know the answer at the moment. I feel more judgement from some people than others.
Is it a natural thing for people to judge others and think critically of others in their mind? Or do people in general rarely judge others negatively? How do you guys judge people in everyday life? What I would like from you guys is on average, how often do you have negative thoughts about other people around you, whether they are strangers or aquaintances, or friends, or family? Do you do it rarely, hardly ever, or often? If I can convince myself that normal people in the world are not as judgemental as I perceieve them to be I will feel a lot better about myself and other people. Your replies would be greatly appreciated.
dlowan wrote:James, since you ask, and since you appear to feel so badly about yourself, I would say that a good therapist might well be able to help you to overcome your distress and your unhelpful ways of thinking.
They cannot make your experiences go away, but they may well be able to help you to have them have much less effect on the way you think and feel.
You have experienced trauma, and good therapy has much to offer for traumatised people.
I have heard of the word trauma. How would you define a traumatic event? I would really like to know whether trauma is defined as a single event or a string of events throughout a major part of someones life
