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Why Austria is right about Blocking Turkey into EU

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 12:47 am
An(other) interesting report from Turkey (in the Independent):

'Membership of the EU would mark the culmination of all Ataturk's work'
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 12:52 am
<Louise_R_Heller probably forgot as well, btw, that Turkey sided with Austria/Germany in World War I, and, as one result, lost territory at the conclusion of the war.>
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 01:47 am
A "Q and A" session on the BBC News website.........4th October 2005.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4107919.stm


Snippet "Q..... Will Turkey's refusal to recognise Cyprus be a problem?

A.....It could soon become a problem. EU accession talks involve the candidate country negotiating with each EU government.

A declaration issued by EU member states in September 2005 says that Turkey must recognise Cyprus before it becomes a member of the EU, and calls on Turkey to normalise relations with all EU member states.The declaration indicates that the accession talks will proceed slowly if this does not happen soon.

It also says that Turkey must fully implement its customs union with all EU states. At the moment Turkey is refusing to allow Cypriot ships and aircraft into its ports and airports. The declaration says this situation will be reviewed in 2006.

Cypriot President Tassos Papadopoulos has pointed out that he has more than 60 opportunities to veto the process. These will occur every time the EU opens or closes one of the 35 chapters of negotiations.
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nimh
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 04:45 am
Lord Ellpus wrote:
I feel that Turkey should not be admitted at this time, as:
1. The present EU has got to sort itself out first, and properly integrate its recent new members, take stock of the present situation re. whether or not to have a constitution, and thrash out some sort of definite direction for the future.

2. Turkey is a long way from meeting the requirements of a free, democratic nation. Until it does, whether it finds it humiliating or not, it should not be allowed to join. If it doesn't like that set of conditions, or if their "pride" is being sorely tested in being told to achieve that goal, then they probably should look elsewhere for trading partners that more suit their ideaology.

3. If Turkey IS accepted, then the borders of the EU would join up with the borders of Iran and Syria. This potential flashpoint/security risk should be digested very carefully before any future decision is made.

For once in my lifetime, and on a topic relating to the EU no less, I completely agree with Lord Ellpus.

There. Said it. Shocked Razz
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 05:11 am
Sorry Nimh, but either you or I must be on valium.


Or both of us?
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nimh
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 05:19 am
Its happy pills for me, whats your cocktail?
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 05:20 am
It must have been that jamaican tobacco that I purchased recently.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 05:54 am
hmmm, though i see 1) and 3), lordy, on number 2): was Eastern Europe close to any democratic requirements more than 10 years ago when accession talks started? hell no. not to even mention spain and portugal, but that was another era and circumstances altogether.
despite 1 and 3, i want turkey in. maybe there's naivite and dreamy idealism on my part behind this, but heck, i chose to be naive. that's the stuff that moves things along, among other things.
besides, it seems to me there is no turning back. europe would have to flatly refuse turkey, would be (is already being) labeled as racist, intolerant, constipated conservative place that is stuck in the past. turkey out or in, neither way will it be good. something's gotta give.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 05:59 am
An excerpt from The Independent article that Walter posted a link to:

Quote:
Although potentially embarrassing for European diplomacy, the deus ex machina arrival of the Americans illustrated how the Turkey/EU negotiations have a dimension that stretches far beyond the borders of both. Turkey's long and deep commitment to secularism, its relative stability in the world's most tumultuous region, its solidity over five decades in Nato all make it of vital importance for the US that the accession talks proceed. The last thing either the US or Europe need is a Turkey that is angry and ready to peel away.


important points, even if exaggerated.
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nimh
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 06:44 am
Well, I gotta admit their enthusiasm is heartwarming... to some, the EU is still a glorious dream - see the bits highlighted in red. Take that, EU-bashers.

Article also provides plenty of details on how long and conditional the path to actual membership still is, though - which I find kinda reassuring...

Quote:
Turks greet EU talks with relief, scepticism

Turkey was elated and relieved finally to have started talks on joining the European Union, but amid the joy some warned on Tuesday of big obstacles strewn on the road to membership.

"A new Europe, a new Turkey," enthused the Milliyet daily, embellishing its front page with the yellow stars of the EU flag and a picture of Kemal Ataturk, the man who founded the modern Turkish Republic in 1923 and sealed its Western orientation.

"The journey has begun," said Radikal, above a photograph of Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul embracing counterpart Jack Straw in Luxembourg where an opening ceremony was held.


Turkey and the 25-nation bloc struck an 11th-hour deal to launch the talks late on Monday, despite deep European public scepticism that the Union will ever be able to digest the large Muslim country of 72 million people.

Some Turks were also sceptical, with one academic calling it an unsustainable deal that would spark crises without end.

But Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said Ankara was going into the process realistically, seeing the EU "neither as a dream nor as an easy target".

"EU membership is a natural extension of Turkey's historic progress. It is about turning Turkey into a society of democracy, freedom and justice," he told lawmakers from his ruling AK Party in Ankara.

"Our ideal is to take our place among the democratic, free and developed countries. The EU is the most appropriate route to reach this ideal."

Top-selling Hurriyet evoked past conflict between Turkey and Christian Europe, when Ottoman troops almost took Vienna, in describing the delaying tactics of arch Turkey-sceptic Austria during Monday's long hours of bargaining in Luxembourg.

"Viennese Waltz -- Twice in history Turkey has been turned back from the gates of Vienna but this time Turkey is taking the road of peace and unity into Europe," the paper said.


But beyond the euphoria and sheer sense of relief that talks have finally started after more than four decades of waiting, most Turks remained only too aware that membership is still far off and will require many difficult changes and sacrifices.

Hasan Unal of Ankara's Bilkent University, a veteran eurosceptic, said he saw nothing in the document to celebrate.

"The document offers Turkey an unsustainable negotiating process, fraught with dangers, which will create one crisis after another," he told Reuters.

"We will only celebrate when Turkey becomes a full member with equal rights. Turkey is not a country to celebrate only the right to sit down at the table," senior opposition lawmaker Onur Oymen told CNN Turk television.

Mehmet Dulger, chairman of parliament's foreign affairs committee, said Turkey-sceptics within the EU such as Austria and Cyprus would have nearly 2,000 opportunities to veto Turkey's EU bid during the lengthy negotiation process.

Each member state must approve the opening and the closing of 35 chapters, or policy areas, in which Turkey must adapt its laws and regulations before it can join the EU.

The anti-government Cumhuriyet newspaper said the EU was still offering Turkey something short of full membership, despite rejecting an Austrian bid to say so openly.

The agreement refers to open-ended negotiations whose final outcome is not known and envisages permanent safeguard restrictions on free movement of Turkish labour and also on Turkey's access to farm subsidies and regional aid.

At Austrian insistence, it makes clear the EU's capacity to absorb Turkey would be a factor in the pace of Turkey's entry.

"Who decides the criteria for determining the EU's 'absorption capacity'? It will not be difficult to come up with criteria showing Turkey cannot join," said Suat Kiniklioglu, director of the German Marshall Fund's Ankara office.

Media in Greece, which has strongly backed Turkey's bid despite traditional rivalry, applauded the deal but sounded sceptical of the outcome.

"Welcome...but slowly, slowly" the daily Eleftherotypia newspaper said -- in Turkish -- on its front page.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 06:59 am
yep, that's how it was for us, too. we've come a long way, too. slovakia in 1994 was a veeeery different place. still has a long way to go.

give turkey a chance, they can make it in ten years, too.
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nimh
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 07:08 am
I think its not the same thing, though. You had an all-European tradition to fall back on, however battered.

(Plus, you're small ;-))
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 07:11 am
it's about time for some non-european tradition to mix in. we are small though, yes (though we were fierce). i'm sick of this place, i hope dem turks will bring some fresh blood and stir europe up a little.
0 Replies
 
Louise R Heller
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 07:14 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
<Louise_R_Heller probably forgot as well, btw, that Turkey sided with Austria/Germany in World War I, and, as one result, lost territory at the conclusion of the war.>


It is you, Mr Hinteler, who does not wish to be reminded of history, not I --- and if you re-read the preceding comments you will see I'm criticized for bringing up TOO MUCH history.

For YOUR info however the Ottoman empire starterd crumbling from Sarajevo to Saudi Arabia early in the 19th century and the alliance with Germany in WWI hurt it no more than the disastrous invasion in Gallipoli. Gallipoli involved no Austrian forces by the way!!!
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Louise R Heller
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 07:17 am
nimh wrote:
I think its not the same thing, though. You had an all-European tradition to fall back on, however battered.

(Plus, you're small ;-))


Mr/Mrs NIMH is entirely correct.

Slovakia had a European tradition in arts industry and science going back many many centuries, and all its people could read and write, yes even before joining the EU!!

None of this is true in Turkey with only 40% female literacy.......
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old europe
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 07:49 am
Louise_R_Heller wrote:
nimh wrote:
I think its not the same thing, though. You had an all-European tradition to fall back on, however battered.

(Plus, you're small ;-))


Mr/Mrs NIMH is entirely correct.

Slovakia had a European tradition in arts industry and science going back many many centuries, and all its people could read and write, yes even before joining the EU!!

None of this is true in Turkey with only 40% female literacy.......


According to the 2000 census, there are gender differences in literacy: 80.6% for women as opposed to 93.9% for men. Yet nowhere near 40%.
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Louise R Heller
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 07:56 am
Mr/Mrs Old Europe

Would you CARE to give a SOURCE for your STATISTICS??

Turkish, are they??

Then they also show that ALL KURDS learn kurdish freely in their schools, and that NO ARMENIANS were ever murdered in the OTTOMAN territories.

Good luck creating policy with those statistics and don't forget the battle for Kurdistan is NOT over and Turkey has said it will intervene in Mosul when that declaration of independence arrives so give it a few months in the Iraqi civil war SmileSmile!!!!
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Louise R Heller
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 07:59 am
In conclusion

I am glad I looked into your site

You are blinded by political correctness and/or ideology and/or lack of historical perspective

For the third there is a cure, come back later !!!!!

I shall do so, and thank you for the entertainment in the meantime SmileSmile
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old europe
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 08:04 am
Okay, sweetheart, I was going to point you to the UN website, but thought the CIA World Factbook might be a source closer to your heart. Numbers are a bit different there:

definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 86.5%
male: 94.3%
female: 78.7% (2003 est.)

CIA World Factbook -- Turkey


But again, nowhere near the 40% you claimed. Would you like to give us a source as well, or did you just invent that number?
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nimh
 
  1  
Tue 4 Oct, 2005 09:03 am
(Good work, OE)

The thing is, I dont see how the EU can integrate a country as large and poor as Turkey without forcing its members to disintegrate whatever's left of the welfare state. Once they're in you can't impose a ban on the free movement of labour forever, and I think there'd be significant migration once it's there.

I like living in a multicultural society; but I want to resist surrendering our welfare state for good and just buying into neoliberal wonderland. Long-term dilemma.
0 Replies
 
 

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