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Why Austria is right about Blocking Turkey into EU

 
 
Louise R Heller
 
  1  
Mon 31 Oct, 2005 06:34 pm
Steve and McTag

Thank you for your comments. Be assured that I do research matters carefully before posting and that consequently I stand by my previous statements to which I wish to add a comment to the following:

"""""""The reinforcement of Austrian-Turkish scientific, cultural and educational cooperation on bilateral and EU level is the primary task of the OTW. A Turkish proverb says that 'knowledge will grow as long as you share it' (http://www.otw.co.at/otw/index.php/e/a/217) """""""

As the "link" posted by "Ul" (Ulrike? hoffentlich nicht) doesn't work, presumably in the brilliant Turkish engineering tradition, it is for me to expect clarifications from the incomprehensible posters and not the other way around.

Tschuess!!!
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 12:59 am
My links as well as that one by Ul are Austrian links.
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McTag
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 01:11 am
Louise_R_Heller wrote:
What credence can be placed in someone's statements when he cannot spell "breakfast" correctly or translate "traces" accurately and all these are problems in his alleged mother tongue, German?

I'm very sceptical about the good faith of many posters here starting with the gentleman in question.........


Sigmund Freud was dyslexic- and Walter types too fast. Smile

But what's with the continuing ad-hominem, Louise? You will not find a more balanced nor a fairer-minded poster on A2K than our Herr H.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 02:32 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
ok quick google and story above appears to be complet bollocks as usual

I'm sure they said Vienna, but what's Budapest/Vienna between Austro-Hungarians?


Yup, Steve, it is a legend. I've heard it both in connection to Vienna and to Budapest - which was partitioned for 150 years (making Bratislava the capital and coronation town of the Hungarian kingdom, yay!) - so there was ample opportunity for Ottoman armies to come and go and presumably inspire the croissant.
Bollocks, in both cases. From what I read online croissant was first recorded sometime in 19th century in France, no reference to anyone or anything Muslim. First recipe appeared in a written form at the beginning of 20th century in some cookbook - just going by memory here.
I have not seen croissant in any Muslim country I've been to, other than at breakfast table in a hotel for tourists. So it seems to have been a genuinely french invention, all the myths and fables were attached to it later.

The myth itself(with Budapest in this version):
Quote:
Legend has it that one night during the war of 1686 between Austria and Turkey, bakers in Budapest Hungary heard Turkish soldiers tunneling under the city and sounded the alarm. This led to the Turkish defeat of the war and the bakers' reward was the honor of making a commemorative pastry in a crescent shape (the shape that is on the Turkish flag). Later the French were credited with reinventing the croissant dough to its current form using a puff pastry-like dough. However, in the Oxford Companion to Food by Alan Davidson, he states that the recipe for the present day croissant doesn't appear in a French recipe book until early in the 20th century and there is no reference to it origins being from the croissant made after the war of 1686.

Whatever its true origins, the present day croissant is still credited to France and enjoyed in many parts of the world. Croissants that are made with butter are called "croissant au beurre" and any croissant containing other types of fat (usually margarine) must be called "croissants".

from joyofbaking: http://www.joyofbaking.com/printpages/Historyprint.html
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 02:42 am
by the way, the 1683 and Vienna make more sense - it was a much bigger battle (with the Poles and Germans coming to rescue) than 1686 in Budapest, but either way it doesn't matter much.

More legends from Wikipedia:
Culinary legends related to the Battle of Vienna
One legend is that the croissant was invented in Vienna, either in 1683 or in an earlier siege in 1529, to celebrate the defeat of the Turkish siege of the city, as a reference to the crescents on the Turkish flags. However, this is likely to be untrue; as there is no evidence that croissants existed before the 19th century.
- Another legend from Vienna, made the first bagel as being a gift to King Jan Sobieski to commemorate the King's victory over the Turks that year. The baked-good was fashioned in the form of a stirrup, to commemorate the victorious charge by the Polish cavalry. The truth of this legend is more uncertain, as there is a reference in 1610 to a similar-sounding bread, which may or may not have been the bagel.
- After the battle, the Austrians discovered many bags of coffee in the abandoned Turkish encampment. Using this captured stock, Franciszek Jerzy Kulczycki opened the first coffeehouse in Vienna and the third in Europe.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 02:45 am
dagmaraka wrote:
Bollocks, in both cases. From what I read online croissant was first recorded sometime in 19th century in France,


I've read in a biography about queen Marie Antoinette that she established the first 'industrialised' bakery for croissants in 1770 and introduced them a bit earlier to the French court.

Some French sites date the first croissants to Budapest in 1686.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 02:53 am
hmmm, i thought there was no mention of them until 19th century.... dunno. most sources i found online claim that 1686 or 1683 myth is an unfounded legend. cool one, though. gotta do more searching, though it may be impossible to establish one way or the other.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 02:55 am
More from Wikipedia:
Etymology
Fanciful stories of how the pastry was created are modern culinary legends. These include tales that it was invented in Vienna in 1683 to celebrate the defeat of the Turkish siege of the city, as a reference to the crescents on the Turkish flags, when bakers staying up all night heard the tunneling operation and gave the alarm; tales linking croissants with the kifli and the siege of Budapest in 1686; and those detailing Marie Antoinette's hankering after a Viennese specialty. Alan Davidson, editor of the Oxford Companion to Food states that no printed recipe for the present-day croissant appears in any French recipe book before the early 20th century; the earliest French reference to a croissant he found was among the "fantasy or luxury breads" in Payen's Des substances alimentaires, 1853.

The "Siege of Vienna" story seems to owe its wide diffusion to Alfred Gottschalk, who wrote about the croissant for the first (1938) edition of the Larousse Gastronomique. Gottschalk first cited the legend about the Turkish attack on Budapest in 1686, in the "history of food" section in the same work, he opted for the "siege of Vienna in 1683" version. Compare the Cappuccino legend.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 02:56 am
The biography is by Simone Bertière "Marie-Antoinette, l'insoumise", 2003.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 03:26 am
i'm not doubting that it's there. just wondering what sources bertiere relied upon if there is allegedly no written record of a croissant before 1853? not that i care too much either way, just wondering out of curiousity.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 03:43 am
Cornish pasties are also cresent shaped. Or should be, although this one

http://telematics.ex.ac.uk/realcornwall/foodanddrink/display_image.asp?id=289&topic=Cornish%20Specialities

looks more like a beached whale.

Legend, as I have just made up, has it that a baker from Cornwall suggested they might be used as cannon munition against the Muslims at the time of the first crusade. This proved so successful and popular with both attacking and defending forces that demand outstripped supply, and gave rise to the modern pasty minining industry as we know it to day in places like Port Leven.

http://www.connexions.co.uk/lizardpasty/
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 03:50 am
"The bakers were thanked and honoured and they decided to make bread in the shape of a crescent moon (the symbol of the Turkish flag) and the croissant was born. One hundred years later, Marie Antoinette (Austrian Princess who married Louis XVI), introduced the croissant to the French Aristocrats.

It was only at the start of this century that the butter puff croissant was created, and became the French national product in 1920. "

Perhaps somewhere there is an answer - that the old austrian croissant didn't look like the 20th century croissant and probably wasn't even called that.
I found references to brioche in M.A's short online biographies - in her famous alleged "Let them eat cake (qu'ils mange de la brioche) sentence, which she, as we know, has never said. it is attributed wrongly to her. brioche is similar to croissant which may have developed from a brioche, though both exist today.

On brioche from foodtimeline:
"Let them eat cake!"
Food historians tell us the composition of brioche has evolved over time. The brioche referenced by Marie Antoinette in her famous "Let them eat cake" phrase ("Qu'ils manget de la brioche") was probably not the same light, flaky roll we enjoy today.

"Brioches originated as soft and light white loaves, enriched with butter and eggs, much much less so than those we know today. They were baked without moulds. Looking at Chardin's beautiful paintings of brioches you can see that he has quite clearly defined the notches round the base of his cottage-loaf-shaped confections, which are handsome and tall but not tidy like a moulded cake. So I think that in the eighteenth century, and at the time of that poor, foolish Marie Antoinette is supposed to have said, when told that the people of Paris were rioting for bread, qu'ils manget de al brioche', the composition of the cake must have been simply that of an enriched bread much like that of our own Bath buns and Sally Lunns, so made at that period without benefit of moulds or tins, although paper bands were sometimes wrapped round them for baking. Certainly it would not be possible to bake today's liquid brioche mixture or crust for a fillet of beef or a large sausage then the brioche mixture is made with fewer eggs and less butter, or it would be impossible to handle."
---English Bread and Yeast Cookery, Elizabeth David [Penguin:Middlesex] 1977 (p. 497)
[NOTE: This book contains far mor information than can be paraphrased here. Ask your librarian to help you find a copy.]

And from the same source on croissants:
While the history of pastry dates back to ancient times, the history of the croissant [as we know it today], seems to be a relatively new invention. Part of the problem may be how one defines "croissant." Food history sources confirm that crescent-shaped pastries were baked in Vienna during the 17th century and that they migrated to France soon thereafter. They recount, but do not confirm/deny the story of the brave bakers who supposedly created the first croissants. This is what Mr. Davidson has to say:

"...croissant in its present form does not have a long history...The earliest French reference to the croissant seems to be in Payen's book "Des substances alimentaires," published in 1853. He cites, among the "Pains dit de fantasie ou de luxe," not only English 'muffins' but 'les croissants'. The term appears again, ten years later, in the great Littre dictionary [1863] where it is defined as 'a little crescent-shaped bread or cake'. Thirteen years later, Husson in "Les Consommations de Paris" [1875] includes 'croissants for coffee' in a list of 'ordinary' (as opposed to 'fine') pastry goods. Yet no trace of a recipe for croissants can be found earlier than that given by Favre in his Dictionnaire universel de cuisine [c. 1905], and his recipe bears no resemblance to the modern puff pastry concoction; it is rather an oriental pastry made of pounded almonds and sugar. Only in 1906, in Colombie's Nouvelle Encyclopedie culinaire, did a true croissant, and its development into a national symbol of France, is a 20th-century history."
---Oxford Companion to Food (p. 228)

http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodbreads.html#brioche


.....sorry for totally hijacking the thread, but i've been fascinated with the origin of croissant for quite some time... ;-)
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 03:54 am
there is now a movement among american bakers (whose website i happened upon) to make question marked croissants. their big debate is about the dots - should they be made separately and sold also with exclamation points, or be attached to the question mark itself somehow.... hmmm...life, so tough...

steve, i like your legend. i'm gonna start spreading it. within a decade, it will be a historical fact, you'll see!
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 04:07 am
I think it was me who started the hijack by mentioning a picture I saw last thursday at Castle Drogo.

Did you ever start rumours as a child at school to see how long and in what form they came back to you? I tried but was never very good at it. (Those that started good stories went on to become journalists).
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 04:11 am
hmmm, no. but i fell prey (pray?) to many. i'm awfully gullible. i even believed someone who told me that 'gullible' is not in a dictionary. that's how gullible i am.
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McTag
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 04:13 am
This thread has put pounds- nay, kilos- on me and I will have to go on a strict diet of no Austrian history.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 04:13 am
Is that why you took up boxing?

like the gullible/dictionary story btw
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 04:16 am
McTag wrote:
This thread has put pounds- nay, kilos- on me and I will have to go on a strict diet of no Austrian history.


yeah best stick to lo-cal history




Smile

hey that was pretty good eh?
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 04:17 am
yes. next time i won't listen to anyone. i'll hit without warning.

but back to turkey... damn, i'm hungry. silly time change. this is not time to have lunch yet. and we only have chicken anyway...
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McTag
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 04:23 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
McTag wrote:
This thread has put pounds- nay, kilos- on me and I will have to go on a strict diet of no Austrian history.


yeah best stick to lo-cal history
Smile
hey that was pretty good eh?


HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Laughing Laughing Laughing

RESPECT!
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