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Why Austria is right about Blocking Turkey into EU

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 04:24 am
couldnt imagine anything more dangerous than an extremely gullible female boxer. Enjoy your chicken lunch. Lo-cal?

you can see I'm quite proud of my little joke. Intend to bore you all to death with it.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 06:20 am
yes, the chicken was lo-cal. at least i hope so. i also hope it didn't talk to any of the roaming birds, pigeons and such vermin in its lifetime, as the bird flu seems to be spreading. experts advice: don't let your poultry talk to any migrating birds. how does one explain this to his chickens?

Today's motto: Think lo-cal, play glo-ball instead of lunch!
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 07:07 am
Well, I DO hope that chicken didn't loo-call! (Which hardly could happen after a Hendl.)
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 07:18 am
no, chicken made no calls, i am happy to report. my father, however, pronounced my baked potatoes to be mashed potatoes, thus insulting my culinary skills.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 07:28 am
Well, obviously he doesn'r know pommes Dauphine or pommes Duchesse. :wink:
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DDT1988UK
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 08:01 am
Ya on this issue of Turkey joining the EU, for starters if the country is so dangerous then wount letting it into the EU acctually help the Terorists carry out there work by allowing movement throughout the EU!!!! Thus threatenig the EU with bomings from muslim radicals?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 08:22 am
Since I'm no native English speaker, I might have got it totally wrong.

So, before answering your question (which I don't really get):
- do you question Turkey to be a "dangerous country"?
- do you think, Turkey to be the central of terrorism/terrorists? (That's, if I got your second and third phrase correctly.)
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 08:57 am
dagmaraka wrote:
....... experts advice: don't let your poultry talk to any migrating birds. how does one explain this to his chickens?



First of all, it depends what native tongue is used by the chicken.

If it was an English chicken, one would simply say "Parc-pekkuk-prrrrrk", but one would have to swap the second and third word round, it the chicken was French, as they say most things backwards.

I wouldn't know how to say the phrase in Slovenian, as I only know Brit and French chicken language, or "poulet parlez" as it is known in the trade.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 09:02 am
Austrian chickens are generally breaded and can't talk properly besides "schmarrn".
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 09:11 am
Slovak, Ellpus, Slovak. Although Slovenian chicken is close enough, some terms have completely contradictory meaning even if they sound the same. one thus has to be extra cautious. you should see how much havoc that used to cause in inter-poulet aviation. that's why we keep our chickens at home mostly. but slovenian pigoens do speak slovenian chicken and wreak havoc among our chickenry due to unintended insults.
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Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 09:48 am
Dag snarls........ "Slovak, Ellpus, Slovak."


I love it when you discipline me, Dag.

I stand corrected, yet slightly aroused.

Slovak it is, from now on.
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McTag
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 11:41 am
What about the ruddy duck?

That duck knows no boundaries, and is sexually incontinent. Reminds me of a girl I used to know.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 02:21 pm
I've posted this already on the EU-thread

Quote:
Brussels to give Turkey torture deadline
Source
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 06:48 pm
now they are torturing birds

this is terrible
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Tue 1 Nov, 2005 09:09 pm
A longtime saline bath, no doubt..
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nimh
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2006 06:28 pm
On page 17-19 of this thread, Dagmaraka and I had an interesting discussion about the tension that, I argued, existed between the protection of the social-democratic welfare state in Western Europe and the desire to have the borders as open as possible, and allow the citizens of the new member states an equal place in the EU (labour) market. A tension that Dag, to simplify grossly, considered exaggerated.

I was reminded of that discussion by this recent article on BBC. Here's my summary of the article's text:

Quote:
Eager Poles find German jobs

Every day, Genek Zelewski picks up sacks of dirty washing in Berlin and drives it across the border to the Textil Fliegel laundry in northwestern Poland.

Within 24 hours, it is immaculate and back in the dining rooms of Berlin's top hotels, thanks to seamless logistics and a high-tech computer-controlled laundry.

Director Wiesemann says his company could not exist in Germany. "We have workers [in Poland] who will work seven days a week, 365 days a year round the clock."

The set-up caused outrage among German competitors and the Berlin senate even began an investigation into the company for "stealing" German jobs.

Since Poland joined the EU, it has been free to export its products to all the member states. But there is still no internal EU market in services, as that directive faces fierce opposition from Germany and France.

So Textil Fliegel has two separate companies - one in Germany and another in Poland - to avoid the restrictions. Others, however, are left in a strange half-way house by the EU's restrictions. The services directive would help them.

But the prospect of more low-paid workers turning up sends shivers through the people of Frankfurt an der Oder, on the German side of the border. Unemployment there is already over 17%.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 23 Jan, 2006 06:48 am
Might post that as well on the EU-thread, but since came up first ...

The case against Orhan Pamuk, Turkey's most prominent writer, was dropped by an Istanbul court Sunday following a statement from the Turkish Justice Ministry.

Turkey throws out case against author Pamuk
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Mon 23 Jan, 2006 07:04 am
well, nimh, i didn't disagree that the european labor market is in turmoil. it is. and much will need to restructure, prices and wages will have to even out, it will take years.
but. about social justice - one wants to be fair to the workers. which workers? german, british, dutch? or also polish, hungarian, czech? who is the bad guy in this picture? i am failing to see one. unemployment in german border regions is rising. that is a problem. but perhaps (and i do lack data, so this is just a speculation) those poles come from regions where unemployment is even higher and living standards lower. i can appreciate that to the german workers it feels like they are paying an unfair price for EU enlargement (perhaps the same as they felt when Germany united)...but it IS a new social reality and one needs to weigh the other side of the coin - the unfashionable one depicting the polish plumber. that's all i wanted to contribute. tensions we spoke about, if i recall, were about something rather different - turkey in the EU.
I guess I'm not quite clear on the message you were trying to deliver with this article, if there was one. Perhaps it was just out of interest and I'm overthinking, dunno...? happens a lot.
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nimh
 
  1  
Mon 23 Jan, 2006 01:01 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
but. about social justice - one wants to be fair to the workers. which workers? german, british, dutch? or also polish, hungarian, czech? who is the bad guy in this picture? i am failing to see one.

I am seeing one.

Germany and other social- or christian-democratic-governed countries have spent decades building up a social state where workers can rely on getting decent wages, not having to work exploitative hours, having proper rights, not being able to be fired at a whim.

This is not something business owners have ever been happy about; by definition they will always be looking for a way to erode these, for them costly, achievements.

An integrating internal market offers them a choice opportunity. In Berlin, they wont be able to find people who are "willing to work seven days a week, 365 days a year, round the clock," but in Poland, because of low living standards there, they can.

So they play Polish workers and German workers out against each other.

I dont blame the Poles, for whom this is a good chance of improving their lot a bit. But I do blame the gaping opportunity, that suddenly chasmed up, for employers to do this.

If German workers refuse to work for exploitative wages or on exploitative hours, and the company, instead of heeding that reality, uses the Polish escape hatch, the workers it finds in Poland basically function as the equivalent of strike breakers.

I've never blamed strike breakers themselves - usually just people trying to get by. But the effect of strike breakers on the achievement of workers rights can be serious.

You posit two things, in this context, if I read you correctly, that I think are slightly naive.

The first one is that it is simply a question of conflicting interests between German workers and Polish workers - either one will get their way more at the disadvantage of the other or vice versa, and seeing that the Polish workers are poorer, and perhaps even more likely to be unemployed than the Germans, what is social justice? Is choosing for one over the other a question of social justice?

In this take, giving the Poles their chance will benefit Polish worker rights, giving the Germans their protection will benefit theirs, and thats the end of it. What that neglects is that neither Polish nor German workers will in the end benefit from a race to the bottom, where companies play them out against each other to get ever more "flexible" (modern-speak for "rightless") arrangements.

Sure, in the short term the Poles would benefit, as Wiesemann's laundry means a step up for them compared to what they have right now. But if the net result is an "evening out" that you speak of, at a Wiesemann level, then they're both fucced - both the Germans, who would lose a lot of strenuously-achieved rights, and the Poles, who can forget about ever gaining the same. In that perspective, blocking the Poles' way right now is a disadvantage for them in the short term, but may save their chance of a proper improvement in the long term.

The second thing is the rather casual observation of the type of practice described in this article as simply the "new social reality". The self-evident need to "restructure"!

This, if I may be so flippant to observe, is of course what the Bolkestein's (and Thomas's ;-)) of this world have worked for forever: to make the casual observer perceive flexibilisation, liberalisation and implied "realism" about lower wages, longer hours and reduced rights as "just how things are, now", something we'll just have to adapt to. In this ever more established language, the labour market is not under threat by the openings that the (economic) liberals have first created themselves; no, it's "in turmoil", a kind of natural, transitional phenomenon that just had to happen and we can only wait out, adapting ourselves to its outcome.

But that fuzzes up the fact that we have a choice, every day again, whether we actually do want to go along with this. The services directive is not there yet. It can be stopped. And when it comes to opening one's labour market to the competition of the, in comparison, extremely low wages (etc) that Poles or Latvians understandably are still willing to work for, there too it's not necessarily a run race and a question of a new reality we just have to resign to. Even the Irish (who, after they became one of only three EU countries to open their labour market to the competition of workers from the new member states, became the subject of many a fawning portrait on how it yielded no problems, at all) now want limits on new member state workers again.

The analysts will tell us that, well, no can do, its all decided already, you've got to be realistic about it. But that, of course, is how many of the European reforms have been pushed through so far: we never got to vote about it, we never said we wanted it, and when we found out it was going on, our government and Brussels told us, "well nothing to do about it now! We have to accept and adapt to the new reality." On that count, I can well line up with the Eurosceptics when they demand the democratic primacy back: not about us without us*.

*Sorry Balts for stealing your slogan and using it against you ... ;-)
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nimh
 
  1  
Mon 23 Jan, 2006 01:05 pm
Oof, long. SOrry.
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