1
   

What is the Matter with Bill Bennett?????

 
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 03:26 pm
Bennett also felt no need to apologize when he was outed as a gambling addict. This from a self-proclaimed moralist.

The man is beyond arrogant...
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 03:37 pm
yitwail wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Asked if he owed people an apology, Bennett replied, "I don't think I do. I think people who misrepresented my view owe me an apology."


so how come the president didn't say, "Billy, you're doing a heckuva job?" why isn't it misrepresenting the remarks to call them "inappropriate?" does the White House owe Bennett an apology?


Because the politically correct thing to do is to call them "inappropriate."

Isn't it?
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 03:49 pm
i guess so. when Pat Robertson suggested assassinating Hugo Chavez, a State Department spokesman called it "inappropriate."

Source

so "inappropriate" is a euphemism for something egregious, i guess. i might have called it stupefying myself.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 04:04 pm
My conservative friends and I often fight over everything but the laws of gravity. They would never say anything as downright stupid as Bennett. Sticking up for him loses you so much credibility in your arguments McG. As glitter said,"Its his , I did not have sex with that woman" or "Hymietown" or Jimmy the Greek, or Rush Limbaugh's "sports analysis about Donovan McNabb(which as we see weekly that Rush was so full of it that his eyes are brown).

If youd recognize a hateful hurtful remark for what it is, no matter from where on the polispectra its propogated, youd be a whole lot more credible. Youre just fired up cause he said it and , by god, youre gonna defend him. That makes you of the same ilk as described by the Bear, Pesche la Capesa
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 04:06 pm
revel wrote:
What makes his statement worse is the fact that it assumes blacks are causing the most crime rate and if they only aborted their babies crime would go down. Even if he really did not in truth mean blacks should really abort their babies the fact that he believes most crime is inherently caused by blacks is a racist point of view.

Not necessarily. One can point to any number of statistics that indicate that, on a per capita basis in the US, blacks commit more crimes than whites without thereby being a racist or indulging in a racist point of view. The statistics are what they are, and no amount of politically correct whitewashing (or blackwashing) can change them.

The backlash against Bennett is, I think, misguided. Everyone who says that his statement was morally reprehensible missed (or intentionally ignored) Bennett's caveat that aborting all black babies to prevent crime would itself be reprehensible. Bennett proposed a hypothetical, but it was quite clear that it was a hypothetical that he himself did not endorse. From the standpoint of morality, then, his statement was innocuous, and those who express moral outrage at his statement must find some reason for that outrage apart from Bennett's mere utterance of that hypothetical.

Rather than expressing their outrage at Bennett's purported immorality, people should be expressing their disagreement with Bennett's logic, which is completely faulty. Bennett, it would appear, argues thusly: blacks cause lots of crime, therefore fewer blacks would mean less crime. Among the problems with this argument are the following:

(1) This is, in its essentials, based on a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. "Crime and blacks go together," the argument runs, "therefore blacks cause crime." Although statistics may point in this direction, those statistics measure for only one variable: race. It may be true, then, that there is a correlation between race and crime, but correlation is not the same thing as causation. It may be that another variable (e.g. income or education) has a higher correlation with crime, in which case aborting black babies would do little to reduce the crime rate.

(2) As mentioned above, statistics indicate that blacks have higher per capita rates for crimes. Since blacks only compose about 12 percent of the US population, however, it is necessary to determine the absolute number of crimes they commit in order to determine if a policy of universal abortion would lower the overall crime rate by any significant degree. After all, if most crimes are committed by non-blacks (albeit at lower rates than blacks), then a policy of universal abortion would do little good.

(3) Crime, in many respects, is like an ecological niche. If a city killed all of its pigeons, that would probably result in an increase in the rat population, because both occupy the same general niche. The same with criminals. When the feds cracked down on the Italian mafia, it just made more room for Hispanic, Chinese, and other ethnic gangs. Likewise, if a future black criminal is aborted, there's a good chance that his place will simply be taken by a non-black criminal. A policy of universal abortion for black babies, then, would merely open up opportunities for non-black criminals.

In sum, Bennett's statement wasn't immoral or even racist, it was just stupid. And for someone who was the secretary of education, that's just sad.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 04:29 pm
I agree Joe. Racist, no ... stupid, yes.
0 Replies
 
princesspupule
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 07:02 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
revel wrote:
What makes his statement worse is the fact that it assumes blacks are causing the most crime rate and if they only aborted their babies crime would go down. Even if he really did not in truth mean blacks should really abort their babies the fact that he believes most crime is inherently caused by blacks is a racist point of view.

Not necessarily. One can point to any number of statistics that indicate that, on a per capita basis in the US, blacks commit more crimes than whites without thereby being a racist or indulging in a racist point of view. The statistics are what they are, and no amount of politically correct whitewashing (or blackwashing) can change them.

The backlash against Bennett is, I think, misguided. Everyone who says that his statement was morally reprehensible missed (or intentionally ignored) Bennett's caveat that aborting all black babies to prevent crime would itself be reprehensible. Bennett proposed a hypothetical, but it was quite clear that it was a hypothetical that he himself did not endorse. From the standpoint of morality, then, his statement was innocuous, and those who express moral outrage at his statement must find some reason for that outrage apart from Bennett's mere utterance of that hypothetical.

Rather than expressing their outrage at Bennett's purported immorality, people should be expressing their disagreement with Bennett's logic, which is completely faulty. Bennett, it would appear, argues thusly: blacks cause lots of crime, therefore fewer blacks would mean less crime. Among the problems with this argument are the following:

(1) This is, in its essentials, based on a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. "Crime and blacks go together," the argument runs, "therefore blacks cause crime." Although statistics may point in this direction, those statistics measure for only one variable: race. It may be true, then, that there is a correlation between race and crime, but correlation is not the same thing as causation. It may be that another variable (e.g. income or education) has a higher correlation with crime, in which case aborting black babies would do little to reduce the crime rate.

(2) As mentioned above, statistics indicate that blacks have higher per capita rates for crimes. Since blacks only compose about 12 percent of the US population, however, it is necessary to determine the absolute number of crimes they commit in order to determine if a policy of universal abortion would lower the overall crime rate by any significant degree. After all, if most crimes are committed by non-blacks (albeit at lower rates than blacks), then a policy of universal abortion would do little good.

(3) Crime, in many respects, is like an ecological niche. If a city killed all of its pigeons, that would probably result in an increase in the rat population, because both occupy the same general niche. The same with criminals. When the feds cracked down on the Italian mafia, it just made more room for Hispanic, Chinese, and other ethnic gangs. Likewise, if a future black criminal is aborted, there's a good chance that his place will simply be taken by a non-black criminal. A policy of universal abortion for black babies, then, would merely open up opportunities for non-black criminals.

In sum, Bennett's statement wasn't immoral or even racist, it was just stupid. And for someone who was the secretary of education, that's just sad.


Joe, I agree w/your logic but don't you think Bennett still ought to apologize for saying something so stupid and offensive to any one group of people? I mean, wouldn't his logic have held equally true if he had suggested aborting all babies? Or all babies born to impoverished families? It would have; he is the one who chose to name a race in his hypothetical statement.
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glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 07:29 pm
I will not criticize the White House for only referring to Bennett's remarks as inappropriate. Bennett is yesterdays news, holds no politically appointed position, and alas, he appears to be as bright as a bat when it comes to appropriateness. I sincerely hope I do not know anyone who would even think such a thing in their own private heads where no one else can hear. It was indeed stupid, incredibly uber-stupid, but when he decided to use a particular racial group as a "for instance" then it was over the top and yes indeed, racist. I don't believe Bill wears sheets when he meets with his friends, and he has probably never burned a cross on anyone's property. What I find most disturbing was his casual "oh by the way" approach to engaging in a "intellectual" discussion. Frankly, words like that are enough to get a student suspended from school, could get a teacher fired, but hell, if it comes out the mouth of the chain-smoking, habitual gambling, virtue guru, everybody else just doesn't understand him. Maybe all of us here should be neutered and prevent any future generations to be exposed to our bad "context" perceptions.

But maybe I'm missing something, Is Bill Bennett's mother or father posting here tonight???? I know parents tend to be over-protective of their children and really hate for others to criticize their offspring. So if the senior Bennetts are here, maybe you should move along to a different thread. The Bill Bennett has no clothes.
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RichNDanaPoint
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 07:38 pm
September has been like Christmas for the Republican party, the gifts just keep coming.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 08:23 pm
princesspupule wrote:
Joe, I agree w/your logic but don't you think Bennett still ought to apologize for saying something so stupid and offensive to any one group of people? I mean, wouldn't his logic have held equally true if he had suggested aborting all babies? Or all babies born to impoverished families? It would have; he is the one who chose to name a race in his hypothetical statement.

I suppose no person in a public forum should refer to a minority group in anything but positive terms, but that's merely a prudential consideration, not an ethical imperative. And I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say that any comment that members of a minority group think offensive is something for which one should apologize. I am reminded of an aide to the mayor of Washington, D.C., who was forced to resign after he used the word "niggardly" (story here -- registration required). The plain fact is that, sometimes, people who are offended shouldn't be, and causing that kind of offense doesn't merit an apology.

In this case, I think Bennett has no reason to apologize for the offense that some have taken at his "racist" remarks, mainly because I don't think they were racist. The mere fact that he used blacks in a hypothetical may have been unwise, but it wasn't racist. People should be more concerned with the fact that Bennett is spreading dumbness than propagating racism.

(btw, good to see you in this neighborhood again, pp, how ya' been?)
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 08:34 pm
New hypothetical... Now I am not proposing we do this but....

Suppose we rounded up all middle aged Republican white males and took them out and hung them, I think it would be safe to say the amount of crime would be reduced.

If only we had done that 10 years ago there would have been no Enron.




(That ought to get some people riled up.)
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 08:39 pm
Your hypo is politically correct. Stupid, but PC.

You have any statistics to back up your hypothetical?

Or was that a rhetorical hypothetical?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 08:53 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Your hypo is politically correct. Stupid, but PC.

You have any statistics to back up your hypothetical?

Or was that a rhetorical hypothetical?


I considered my hypothetical to be quite hysterical and thought others might find it at least mildly funny. Never thought of it as rhetorical but perhaps it is satirical and therefore no need for analytical or statistical investigation.

But with this week's indictments and investigations it does seem to have a basis. :wink:
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 10:52 pm
In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, more Palestinians are killed by Israeli operations than Israelis by Palestinian attacks. Would it be politically correct to say that it would be a huge step towards peace in the region if all Isreali babies were to be aborted?
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 11:05 pm
Quote:


More? Here.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 11:05 pm
old europe wrote:
In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, more Palestinians are killed by Israeli operations than Israelis by Palestinian attacks. Would it be politically correct to say that it would be a huge step towards peace in the region if all Isreali babies were to be aborted?


No, but netither would it be politically incorrect -- providing you, like Bennet were making a point about how issues cannot be viewed in a context devoid of moral considerations.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2005 11:21 pm
You're right, it's not a matter of political correctness. It is a matter of what one's values are.

Quote:
''But I do know that it's true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could, if that were your sole purpose, you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down.''


I think the "example" he gave, never mind the context, is quite telling.

Re: context - he takes issue with the idea the the crime rate went down because the number of abortions went up. To make his point he then states that this would be true if only black babies were aborted. That's the context I'm supposed to have in mind when reading this "snippet". And that's in favor of him how exactly????
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 04:12 am
My "never fail" test has always been whether a topic gets satirized by Doyle Redland in the "Onion" If its too touchy an issue , Onion leaves it be. If its merely stupid and could serve in a satirical fashion as parados example, then its pretty much settled. Stupid but not overtly racist. (Of course what is , or is not racist can only be obliquely appreciated by a bunch of middle age white folks)
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 04:15 am
Bennett is merely trying to replace Limbaugh whose stock is slipping and who, reportedly, is still often cranked while on air.
Im waiting for the day that Bennett delivers his own version of "I have sinned".
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2005 07:41 am
The black babies have not even been born yet to be part of a statitic, so his remarks just assumes that if they were born rather than aborted chances are high they are going to be criminals.

Moreover, with the way that blacks are systematically under represented in courts because they can't afford good lawyers and profiled when they go in to stores or drive down a road, the fact that blacks might make up more of criminals is not an indication of anything more than we have an unjust system in America that most people will not admit to. Black people are not inhertently more apt to commit crimes than any other group. The other races that live in the same circumstances probably commit the same amount of crime. It is just that Blacks so happen to represent more of the majoirty of the poor in America which is not to our credit.

The problem is poor and downtrodden neighborhoods with no hope with poor education and few opportunities. Some people overcome and get out of the hoods and poor neighborhoods but it is a uphill battle which makes it unfair to judge on the same scale with the rest of the world. Fix the issue of the poor in America and crime rate will go down.

Speaking of abortinig republicans in order to drive down crime.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/01/politics/01educ.html?hp&ex=1128225600&en=ed2345e1f9cc06db&ei=5094&partner=homepage

October 1, 2005
Buying of News by Bush's Aides Is Ruled Illegal

By ROBERT PEAR

Quote:
WASHINGTON, Sept. 30 - Federal auditors said on Friday that the Bush administration violated the law by buying favorable news coverage of President Bush's education policies, by making payments to the conservative commentator Armstrong Williams and by hiring a public relations company to analyze media perceptions of the Republican Party.

In a blistering report, the investigators, from the Government Accountability Office, said the administration had disseminated "covert propaganda" in the United States, in violation of a statutory ban.

The contract with Mr. Williams and the general contours of the public relations campaign had been known for months. The report Friday provided the first definitive ruling on the legality of the activities.

Lawyers from the accountability office, an independent nonpartisan arm of Congress, found that the administration systematically analyzed news articles to see if they carried the message, "The Bush administration/the G.O.P. is committed to education."

The auditors declared: "We see no use for such information except for partisan political purposes. Engaging in a purely political activity such as this is not a proper use of appropriated funds."
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