A Pledge of Allegiance is a crock

As usual, EBrown has spoken my mind more wisely and clearly than I ever could hope to.

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so what about the statement-

"And to the republic for wich it stands" ?

hmm.. last I checked america was supposed to be a democracy.

of course, it doesnt sound as good

" and to the democracy for wich it stands."

hell, lets yank that too

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shewolf

shewolfnm wrote:

so what about the statement-

"And to the republic for wich it stands" ?

hmm.. last I checked america was supposed to be a democracy.

of course, it doesnt sound as good

" and to the democracy for wich it stands."

hell, lets yank that too

Actually, America is a Republic. Democracy is hanging on by its finger tips under the Bushies.

BBB

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As far as what I teach my students, I teach them that there is far more to life than being a clueless rebel. The flag is a symbol and should be understood as what a synbol is. The flag itself is not freedom, it represnts the symbology of freedom to those people who enjoy embracing that freedom.
Our country is a representative democracy(if you paid attention in your American Government classes and your Ancient Greece history you would know that.
But for those people who have forgotten, it means that we as individual select a representative to be our voice. As with all voring, not everyone wins. We have practiced this most of our lives.
And again for those people who realy can't grasp the basic concept: If you don't like MY country LEAVE!

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ralpheb wrote:

As far as what I teach my students, I teach them that there is far more to life than being a clueless rebel. The flag is a symbol and should be understood as what a synbol is. The flag itself is not freedom, it represnts the symbology of freedom to those people who enjoy embracing that freedom.
Our country is a representative democracy(if you paid attention in your American Government classes and your Ancient Greece history you would know that.
But for those people who have forgotten, it means that we as individual select a representative to be our voice. As with all voring, not everyone wins. We have practiced this most of our lives.
And again for those people who realy can't grasp the basic concept: If you don't like MY country LEAVE!

It is not YOUR country.

And if you had any sense of what the country is all about...you'd realize just how "unAmerican" your attitude is.

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Most kids don't even understand why they have to say the pledge, and then when they are old enough to understand it they don't have to say it anymore. "One nation under the Easter Bunny" has the same importance "One Nation Under God" It's incredibly moronic that Bible Thumpers as well as Atheists feel so strongly about this... If you don't want to say "Under God" be silent, then resume when the Bible Thumpers are done praying to the Easter Bunny. If a kid gets into trouble for being silent then we have a real issue on our hands.

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Frank you can leave at any time

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ralpheb wrote:

As far as what I teach my students, I teach them that there is far more to life than being a clueless rebel. The flag is a symbol and should be understood as what a synbol is. The flag itself is not freedom, it represnts the symbology of freedom to those people who enjoy embracing that freedom.
Our country is a representative democracy(if you paid attention in your American Government classes and your Ancient Greece history you would know that.
But for those people who have forgotten, it means that we as individual select a representative to be our voice. As with all voring, not everyone wins. We have practiced this most of our lives.
And again for those people who realy can't grasp the basic concept: If you don't like MY country LEAVE!

Ralph,

You are wrong about us.

I am an American citizen. I love my country and I fully understand freedom.

I enjoy embracing "that freedom". The flag (and specifically the "pledge of alliegence" to said piece of fabric) do not represnt the "symbology" of freedom to me.

Think about what you are saying here. You believe that "good Americans" (by your definition of good American) should get up and say a "pledge" (a set of memorized words recited by rote).

Furthermore you have put your self in a position of judgement, saying that Americans who don't share your belief aren't good Americans. Just because I (based on my beliefs) choose not to say recite these words-- you not only accuse me of rejecting freedom-- you tell me to leave my country.

One group of citizens moralistically telling other citizens to get up and recite rote words as a symbol of "alliegence"-- and this is what you call freedom?

Can you consider that perhaps, in a diverse country such as ours, different people have different ways of "enjoying freedom". There are many of us who love our country and reject these words (and the nationalistic overtones that they have for many of us). The pledge is not a symbol of freedom for me. For me symbols of freedom are the Lincoln memorial (with its moving history from the MLK movement) and the First Amendment.

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I also want to speak as a former student of a teacher who was like you. (I am now an educated man in his late thirties who can look back in hindsight with some experience). But, I can tell you what your students will think of you in 20 years.

For me it was Mr. Downey. He was the Business/Pascal teacher (as well as homeroom) and beaurocrat of beurocrats. He insisted on a specific posture during the "pledge" standing straight, hand over heart.

One day I decided that I didn't want to participate. I was going through a time of religious searching and was interested in Quakerism. I read the "do not take oaths" section from the Sermon on the Mount and decided that the "pledge" as an oath was wrong.

The next morning, I sat quietly for the pledge. Mr. Downey was livid. He gave a speech very much like the one you gave. I tried to explain, but Mr. Downey grew more and more insensed. The second day, he (in a fit of rage) sent me to the office.

In the office, I tried to explain to Mr. Pacey (the principal) my reason. He called home and threatened me with suspension. Finally Mr. Pacey backed down (I think it was because my parents are educated and open minded, and there may have been one of the early trials on the pledge). For the rest of my time in High School I sat quietly.

Mr. Downey was a horrible teacher. His message was clear -- Conform or you are not a good American. He also used his authority very innappropriately believing that somehow he had the right to force a student to go against his beliefs.

Ralph, think about what you are doing to your students.

You should listen to those of us who have faced teachers like you. We are now educated adults who are fully engaged as citizens and love our country.

Perhaps Mr. Downey taught me something, at least it taught me that unjust authority could be opposed with principles.

But without question, what Mr. Downey did was innappropriate and I now look back on him with scorn.

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eBrown
eBrown, your story sounded so familiar to me. I had teachers like yours. But I also had Miss Goode, who took an interest in me in her history class. After the first year of her two year history courses, she wanted me to enter the Ford History Contest, which required two years of history to enter. Since I hadn't completed year two, she invited me to her home to tutor me in what I would have learned in her second year class. That one-on-one teaching was one of the most important lessons of my life. After the test, I was first in my high school, third in my county, but I didn't make the cut in my state.

I was not disappointed because I never thought I could make it to the country level. But Miss Goode had faith in me and I tried. The only downside to my experience was that when I had to take my second year of history, I promised I would sit quietly and not raise my hand to answer questions---because I had already learned them from Miss Goode. It was our secret.

Our other secret was that she knew I would not say "under god" during the oath of allegiance. She would always look at me with a slight grin.

Of all my teachers, Miss Goode is the one I remember with great affection and admiration.

BBB

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I get so tired of jerks telling me, if you don't see it my way, get out of MY country. Quite a few of my ancestors were here to greet most you REAL AMERICANS when you were arriving. They told you to get out, but you didn't listen.

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edgarblythe wrote:

I get so tired of jerks telling me, if you don't see it my way, get out of MY country. Quite a few of my ancestors were here to greet most you REAL AMERICANS when you were arriving. They told you to get out, but you didn't listen.

I get tired of hearing, if your not with us your against us. Thats the same to me.

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Edgar
Hee hee, Edgar, I'm with you. My ancient family arrived in America ten years after the Mayflower landing at Plymouth Rock. Does that make me a real American that can stay in my country? For those who always demand proof, read "The Marvins in America", which can be found at the New York City Public Library in their historical collection.

BBB

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Even when I was a small kid, I considered reciting the pledge an imposition. Hearing it again and again did not make me accept it, but only feel resentment for the ones enforcing it.

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ralpheb wrote:

Frank you can leave at any time

Grow up!

Learn how to be an American.

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Frank

Frank Apisa wrote:

ralpheb wrote:
Frank you can leave at any time

Grow up!
Learn how to be an American.

Frank, shall we impose a penalty on anyone who says we are unamerican and should leave post haste? How about having to recite the pledge of allegiance 100 times, non stop? Or, even better, write it one hundred times on a blackboard.

BBB

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My ancestors were killed by " arriving americans"

too bad my ancestors didnt have SARS handy..

i always wonder what would have become of ' america' if the native americans were able to hold their ground against the invaders..

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shewolf

shewolfnm wrote:

My ancestors were killed by " arriving americans"
too bad my ancestors didnt have SARS handy..

i always wonder what would have become of ' america' if the native americans were able to hold their ground against the invaders..

[/b]

Provocative question. How do you think all of North America would have developed? What about the invaders of the South and Central America continent?

BBB

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BBB - I was going to ask similar questions. Shewolf, when you ponder thaose questions, what do you see?

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I dont know?
Maybe the spanish could have dominated america..
maybe the canadians would have?
Maybe noone would have dominated and it would have just become a melting pot.

I would think.. ( this is just my opinion)
If america had never lost the Indian culture, that most of the country would be as alot of native africa is. Lack of- or non existant technology..
Natural living, natural hunting..

Or it is all a pipe dream..

There were millions of Indians here in america when those ' white folk' breched the shore lines
If it were not for the foreign diseases and the guns they carried, I doubt they would have conquered. Lack of knowledge of this land would have put them at a terrible disadvantage.
But how can you fight an unseen war?
Native Americans had never seen flus , german measels, andother things their tribes were now ridden with.
They didnt know how to fight at the distance and the advantage guns gave. They knew arrows, hand to hand, they knew poison plants to coat thier arrows with.. but not a mile range of a gun.

In my mind, since it was such a short time ago , I truly believe that ,if the english never landed, the spanish never conquered, we as a nation would be living as close to nature as humanly possible with small trinkets of technology scattered here and there for posterity and power.

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A Pledge of Allegiance is a crock

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