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Judge Roberts' Senate Hearings

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 02:23 pm
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
because brandon is only interested in getting his way and of course his way is whatever his masters tell him. He's typical of his breed.

So in your mental model of my life, when I read a post here, I call up the Republican Party and let them dictate the form of a response? How do "my masters" communicate my instructions to me? I'm not a member of any organization through which such commands could be channelled.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 04:02 pm
Re: The Rule of Law and the Spirit of Law
ja79 wrote:
John Roberts has repeatedly said throughout the hearing that he became a lawyer because he wanted to uphold the rule of law. With this motivation, would Judge Roberts have ever supported any of the amendments of the constitution when they were being considered.

The letter of the law and stasis decisis are important concepts, but I hope he realizes that laws are created for a reason. This is what is commonly known as the spirit of the law, and is more fundamental than the letter of the law. Does John Roberts understand this at all? All the intentions of the founders and framers of the constitution were not completely correct - to say they were completely correct is bifurcation.

It is good though that his focus will be on interpreting the law strictly, to its most inherent indications, so that an issue like abortion will have to be decided by Congress, not the Supreme Court. If Congress bans abortion, then Roberts will have to be faithful to that law. But the Constitution is supreme over the laws of Congress so the Supreme Court will inetivetably yield some law-making power (through an overturn of law).


I read your post several times and I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Whether Judge Roberts would have personally supported any of the amendments to our Constitution is not relevant. What is relevant is that these amendments exist and all judges are sworn to uphold the Constitution.

Judge Roberts is 50 years old and he has been a lawyer most of his adult life. I'm sure that he understands ordinary rules of interpretation with respect to constitutional and statutory law. I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make about the "letter" vs. the "spirit" of the law. Nor can I figure out your point about the founding fathers and bifurcation? Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me so I will not comment any further on those muddy points.

If by some unlikely remote chance that Roe v. Wade is overturned, the issue of banning abortions will NOT be decided by Congress. The issue of whether abortions may be prohibited (with certain constitutionally mandated exceptions) will be in the hands of the States and their legislatures.

And finally, yes . . . the United States Constitution is the supreme law of the land. But, your statement that "the Supreme Court will inetivetably yield some law-making power" makes no sense at all. Courts do not have any "law-making power" to yield. In our system of checks and balances and separation of powers, the legislative branch makes law, the executive branch executes (enforces) the law, and the judicial branch applies the law to cases and controversies.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 04:23 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
good responses, deb. you do know your stuff. thanks !

i thought the land claim back east was covered under eminent domain ?

i don't know much at all about that law, but there is a discussion taking place here where the college where my wife works may exercise that option to force a purchase of the remaining 2 apartment buildings on their block. (which would be great in my book. they're infested with pandieros). the idea being that the entire street could be blocked of at one end, a new parking structure built which would create a better enclosed campus mall.

also, as i understand it, eminent domain isn't just a grab and run. the owner is paid either fair market or negotiates a higher price.

is that even close ?


The power of eminent domain is the power of government to take (or damage) private property for public use (benefit). The Fifth Amendment (applicable to the States via the Fourteenth Amendment) requires the government to pay just compensation. Most of the time, the government and the property owner negotiate a fair price. However, if the parties cannot agree and the matter of just compensation goes to court, the usual measure of damages is fair market price.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 04:59 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
It is, in fact, not unconstitutional to make laws in areas about which the Constitution says nothing, although it may be immoral or inadvisable. And much as you would like to claim that the Constution says anything you want it to, there has to be some actual basis in the document to support what you want before the justices can properly rule rule that the document so mandates.


Okay Brandon. Let's give your interpretation a look.

Consider the following hypothetical:

Roe v. Wade is overturned and your life and liberty interest in the "right to privacy" is no longer protected by the Constitution. Your state bans abortion. Thereafter, the state legislature reasons that there are millions of children in this country living in poverty and that these children are an economic drain on the state and their poverty as they grow into adulthood leads to higher crime rates.

The state government reasonably determines that it cannot continue to foot the bill to feed and house the children of men who simply sire children and abandon their support obligations. The state government reasonably determines that it cannot continue to foot the bill to fight crime and house criminals in jails and prisons. The state government determines that preventing the conception of children who will ultimately be born into poverty is a reasonble means to address the societal problem. Accordingly, the state legislature passes a law that mandates the sterilization of all men who fall within designated categories.

By state law, therefore, you are required to have a vasectomy and your failure to obtain a vasectomy will result in heavy criminal fines and imprisonment.

According to your strict constructionist view, the United States Constitution doesn't specifically say that you have the right to procreate, so where are you going to turn for protection against governmentally-enforced sterilization?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 05:02 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
Quote:
[Roberts] told Schumer that he had read the transcripts of every recent Supreme Court nominee's confirmation hearings before him and not only is he following their precedent but he had answered more questions than anyone else.

"I think I have been more forthcoming than any of the other nominees," Roberts said in response to Schumer's criticism.


Paraphrasing: I've done my homework, and in comparison to others, you should be thrilled that I have answered as much as I have . . . so shove it.

It's a nice paraphrase, but I also think Roberts is basically correct. Over the past week, C-Span 3 broadcast previous Supreme Court nomination hearings. I watched excerpts of Rehnquist's, Scalia's, Bork's, Breyer's and Ginsburg's. The only truly candid one was Bork, and I'd say he was by far the most forthcoming nominee. (He also came across to me as contentious at many moments.) All of the four others were evading weaseling almost to the point of filibustering. I think it's fair to say that Roberts was more forthcoming than any nominee who actually made it into the court.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 05:36 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
According to your strict constructionist view, the United States Constitution doesn't specifically say that you have the right to procreate, so where are you going to turn for protection against governmentally-enforced sterilization?

1) To the state constitution. I haven't read all 50 of them, but judging by a random sample of about 10 I did look at, they all seem to have language to the effect that individuals have an unalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The right to life has been held at least since the days of Blackstone (1765) to include the "uninterrupted enjoyments of ones limbs", which would certainly be violated by laws as the one you postulate in your hypothetical. (The Blackstone quote is from memory here, but should be accurate.)

2) You shoot the bastards trying to sterilize you, pursuant to the the second amendment of the federal constitution. I think that's the one that protects your right to hold and bear arms. This right has been held, also since at least the days of Blackstone, to empower the people to forcibly resist tyrannical governments. A policy as the one you describe certainly disqualifies as tyrannical any government that pursues it.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 06:12 pm
Thomas wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
According to your strict constructionist view, the United States Constitution doesn't specifically say that you have the right to procreate, so where are you going to turn for protection against governmentally-enforced sterilization?

1) To the state constitution. I haven't read all 50 of them, but judging by a random sample of about 10 I did look at, they all seem to have language to the effect that individuals have an unalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The right to life has been held at least since the days of Blackstone (1765) to include the "uninterrupted enjoyments of ones limbs", which would certainly be violated by laws as the one you postulate in your hypothetical. (The Blackstone quote is from memory here, but should be accurate.)

2) You shoot the bastards trying to sterilize you, pursuant to the the second amendment of the federal constitution. I think that's the one that protects your right to hold and bear arms. This right has been held, also since at least the days of Blackstone, to empower the people to forcibly resist tyrannical governments. A policy as the one you describe certainly disqualifies as tyrannical any government that pursues it.


now, congress outlaws the private ownership of guns. and since you no longer have a right to privacy, search and seizure is really easy. don't bother trying to hide them, the authorities can take down the house timber by timber until they either find your gatt or are satisfied that you don't have one there. so then they are free to move on to a search of your business or place of work.

and on and on...
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 08:05 pm
Quote:
If by some unlikely remote chance that Roe v. Wade is overturned, the issue of banning abortions will NOT be decided by Congress. The issue of whether abortions may be prohibited (with certain constitutionally mandated exceptions) will be in the hands of the States and their legislatures.



And that is exactly how it is supposed to be.
Each state makes the law according to the will of the voters of that state,as long as those laws do not conflict with the US constitution.
There is nothing wrong with that at all.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 09:13 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
slkshock7 wrote:
chris56789 wrote:
WARNING!!!

HE WILL change Roe vs Wade!!!! He is a dangerous man!!


To me, this is a positive Very Happy ...I hope that he will change Roe v Wade, but don't think it will take lies, just the proper interpretation of the constitution.


great! i look forward to you personally being forced to bear, deliver and raise a child you don't want.


A refreshingly candid admission. The question then reduces to a contest between the Mothers "wants" and the child's right to live. There is much dispute over the extent of a right to privacy conferred in the constitution - mostly because ity is not mentioned. This right is inferred as a consequence of several distinct provisions. However the right to life is very specifically acknowledged in the constitution as belonging to all human beings. So perhaps we are left with a dispute over just what constitutes a human being.
0 Replies
 
ja79
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Sep, 2005 09:19 pm
Re: The Rule of Law and the Spirit of Law
I'm not an expert in the field at all. The spirit of the law simply means the intentions and reasons the law was created in the first place. I believe Roberts will be faithful to that.
You're right, the Supreme Court does not in theory make laws. But deciding that banning abortion on the federal level is unconsitional has the force of law. It is saying: "Congress shall make no law prohibiting abortion because it is unconstitutional."
Perhaps also I can be more concrete in saying that it's not true the framers did not make any mistakes. I can concede my point in this way: "The constitution has been very effectual and has secured the liberty of its affected for its life." Nevertheless, John Roberts understands the breadth of the matter much more than I, and probably more than almost everyone present and past.
I hope his judgements are excellent, because he is most likely going to be the chief justice for most of my life. I don't know though. It's hard to tell whether the framers could have possibly imagined every circumstance including our present ones. There is so much room for interpertation there must be some underlying values that will affect him.
I guess the Senate has been having the same reservations.
Just a layperson thinking. Opinions are welcome.
Debra_Law wrote:
ja79 wrote:
John Roberts has repeatedly said throughout the hearing that he became a lawyer because he wanted to uphold the rule of law. With this motivation, would Judge Roberts have ever supported any of the amendments of the constitution when they were being considered.

The letter of the law and stasis decisis are important concepts, but I hope he realizes that laws are created for a reason. This is what is commonly known as the spirit of the law, and is more fundamental than the letter of the law. Does John Roberts understand this at all? All the intentions of the founders and framers of the constitution were not completely correct - to say they were completely correct is bifurcation.

It is good though that his focus will be on interpreting the law strictly, to its most inherent indications, so that an issue like abortion will have to be decided by Congress, not the Supreme Court. If Congress bans abortion, then Roberts will have to be faithful to that law. But the Constitution is supreme over the laws of Congress so the Supreme Court will inetivetably yield some law-making power (through an overturn of law).


I read your post several times and I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Whether Judge Roberts would have personally supported any of the amendments to our Constitution is not relevant. What is relevant is that these amendments exist and all judges are sworn to uphold the Constitution.

Judge Roberts is 50 years old and he has been a lawyer most of his adult life. I'm sure that he understands ordinary rules of interpretation with respect to constitutional and statutory law. I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make about the "letter" vs. the "spirit" of the law. Nor can I figure out your point about the founding fathers and bifurcation? Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me so I will not comment any further on those muddy points.

If by some unlikely remote chance that Roe v. Wade is overturned, the issue of banning abortions will NOT be decided by Congress. The issue of whether abortions may be prohibited (with certain constitutionally mandated exceptions) will be in the hands of the States and their legislatures.

And finally, yes . . . the United States Constitution is the supreme law of the land. But, your statement that "the Supreme Court will inetivetably yield some law-making power" makes no sense at all. Courts do not have any "law-making power" to yield. In our system of checks and balances and separation of powers, the legislative branch makes law, the executive branch executes (enforces) the law, and the judicial branch applies the law to cases and controversies.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2005 02:05 am
Debra_Law wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
It is, in fact, not unconstitutional to make laws in areas about which the Constitution says nothing, although it may be immoral or inadvisable. And much as you would like to claim that the Constution says anything you want it to, there has to be some actual basis in the document to support what you want before the justices can properly rule rule that the document so mandates.


Okay Brandon. Let's give your interpretation a look.

Consider the following hypothetical:

Roe v. Wade is overturned and your life and liberty interest in the "right to privacy" is no longer protected by the Constitution. Your state bans abortion. Thereafter, the state legislature reasons that there are millions of children in this country living in poverty and that these children are an economic drain on the state and their poverty as they grow into adulthood leads to higher crime rates.

The state government reasonably determines that it cannot continue to foot the bill to feed and house the children of men who simply sire children and abandon their support obligations. The state government reasonably determines that it cannot continue to foot the bill to fight crime and house criminals in jails and prisons. The state government determines that preventing the conception of children who will ultimately be born into poverty is a reasonble means to address the societal problem. Accordingly, the state legislature passes a law that mandates the sterilization of all men who fall within designated categories.

By state law, therefore, you are required to have a vasectomy and your failure to obtain a vasectomy will result in heavy criminal fines and imprisonment.

According to your strict constructionist view, the United States Constitution doesn't specifically say that you have the right to procreate, so where are you going to turn for protection against governmentally-enforced sterilization?

I guess I would look and see if anything in the law talked about the right to physical integrity.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2005 07:12 am
I don't see anything in the Constitution that specifically says you have a "right to physical integrity."

Gee whiz. Maybe our constitutionally secured rights of life and liberty have meaning and substance? Do you think we can give those concepts some substance to protect people from unreasonable government interference into our private lives? Hmmmmm.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2005 07:45 am
Debra_Law wrote:
I don't see anything in the Constitution that specifically says you have a "right to physical integrity."

No, but it was implied in the original meaning of the "right to life".

Debra_Law wrote:
Gee whiz. Maybe our constitutionally secured rights of life and liberty have meaning and substance? Do you think we can give those concepts some substance to protect people from unreasonable government interference into our private lives? Hmmmmm.

These concepts already had well-understood meanings and substance when they were written into the constitution. And even the staunchest strict constructionists agree that the specifics of that substance can change with technical progresss -- Bork's example in The Tempting of America is that wiretapping a phone is a search under the Fourth Amendment, even when the wiretappers never enter the house. The disagreement is that according to strict constructionists, courts cannot find new substances and new meanings in the text, principles that were not understood to be in there when the constitunal provision was passed. Their opposition thinks that courts ought to have much more leeway as they interpret the text.

I confess I'm having a hard time over here deciding if you honestly don't know that or if you are deliberately attacking a straw-man version of strict constructionism for rhetorical effect. I am inclined to bet on the latter.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2005 07:49 am
Is the constitution infallible?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2005 08:00 am
dyslexia wrote:
Is the constitution infallible?

As infallible as the bible, the pope or the Supreme Court; or in other words: no it isn't. The difference is, you can change the constitution when it's no longer adequate. Many American states have done that with their state constitution, much more vigorously than the United States have. In contrast you cannot rewrite the bible when it errs, nor elect a new pope when he is found bullshîtting his flock, nor change the Supreme Court when it subverts the constitution it has sworn to enforce. Let's face it: America's constitution is great when considered as the holy scripture of a civic religion. But considered as a piece of legal craftsmanship, it is seriously shoddy and outdated. The consequence is that America ought to bring it up to speed with 10-20 new amendments, not that the Supreme Court ought to evolve it through creative reinterpretation.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2005 08:04 am
"subverts" is a very loaded term don't you think Thomas?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2005 08:06 am
dyslexia wrote:
"subverts" is a very loaded term don't you think Thomas?

Sure -- as is "bullshîtting", which I notice you haven't objected to.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2005 08:08 am
nah, I rarely object to "bullshitting" mostly because I do so much of it meself.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2005 08:29 am
I hear you've done your share of subversion too. Wink

Straying on-topic for a moment: When I compare the Rogers hearings to earlier confirmation hearings, the trend I find most remarkable is the declining number of Republican senators who ask their own nominees good, tough questions. Arlen Specter seems to be the last one left. In the late eighties there were quite a few more of them. Unfortunately I didn't have the presence of mind to write down their names, and Google doesn't yet let you search for the image of a face you have in your mind. But Alan K. Simpson of Wyoming, for one, belonged to this old-fashioned brand of Republican senators I'd like to see more of -- but don't. It seems they all got swept away in the Rove-, DeLay-, Grassley- purge of the late nineties, which I find shameful and tragic.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2005 09:33 am
I'm afraid that is the case, Thomas.

I think two facets...purging of moderates (an old strategy which Rove, Norquist, Reed, and some other key players) have used since their effective takeover and control of the college republicans in the 70s and 80s and, obviously, there are the advantages which can accrue when you can manage to enforce singular message/viewpoint broadly across the party. Totalitarianism has its attractions, as even Bush has mentioned, wistfully.
0 Replies
 
 

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