Just as a point of reference, the Old River Control Structure was built in 1963, not the 1950s.
Anyone who has ever driven along the river from Baton Rouge to New Orleans knows that this is not just an immensely built up and busy riverine port area, but that it is home to dozens of petroleum refineries and chemical plants. From the time of d'Iberville's settlement to the present, the powers that were always had a stake in preserving the status quo, and any of them would have looked with horror upon a suggestion that people ought to be moved, or prevented from settling or building new houses or other types of businesses.
In our human hubris, we have thought to control the Mississippi River, one of the mightiest forces of nature in the world. We see the price of that folly now. The folly will without doubt be perpetuated.
Drop that stuff in, wait twenty minutes and then you can blame Bush for causing the biggest stampede death scene in American history.
Regardless of how irresponsible the French were, the politicians in the 20th century had up-to-date scientific proof of the disaster to come and chose not to make the politically disastrous move to spend the money necessary to protect Louisiana's coastine.
Hopefully, this disaster will be the catalyst for more careful planning in other states in the future. In the meantime, MoveOn is asking people within 300 miles of New Orleans to offer their guest rooms or spare sofas to the refugees. Supermarkets are asking for donations of clothing and food in every state to be sent to Louisiana.
Any takers?
Lash wrote:Drop that stuff in, wait twenty minutes and then you can blame Bush for causing the biggest stampede death scene in American history.
Not if the food and water was dropped before they were actually starving ;-)
It seems Bill Clinton's one of the few liberals not playing politics with this disaster:
Quote:MALVEAUX: Let me ask you this: There are some people at the New Orleans Convention Center who say that they have been living like animals -- no food, no water, no power. And they are the ones who are saying: Where are the buses? Where are the planes? Why did it take three days to see a real federal response here? Mr. Bush, you, whether it's fair or not, had gone through some administration criticism about your handling of Hurricane Andrew.
G.H.W. BUSH: I sure did.
MALVEAUX: Do you believe that this is legitimate?
G.H.W. BUSH: Yes, I do. What happened? We all sighed with -- not legitimate. I believe that they ought not to be as upset, but I can understand why they are. We thought, a lot of people thought, that when the hurricane went to the right a little bit, New Orleans was going to be spared. And it was only the next day that, you know, there were these horrible problems with the levee. But, look, if I were sitting there with no shower, no ability to use bathroom facilities, worried about my family, not knowing where they were, I'd blame anybody and so you have to expect that.
MALVEAUX: But do you think this administration responded quickly enough?
G.H.W. BUSH: Of course I do.
CLINTON: Let me answer this. The people in the Superdome are in a special position. And let me say, I've been going to New Orleans for over 50 years. There's no place on earth I love more. They went into the Superdome, not because of the flooding, but because we thought the hurricane was going to hit New Orleans smack dab and they'd be safe in there if they didn't leave town.
What happened was, when the levee broke and the town flooded, what did it do? It knocked out the electricity and it knocked out the sewage. They're living in hellacious conditions. They would be better off under a tree than being stuck there. You can't even breathe in that place now.
So I understand why they're so anxiety-ridden. But they have to understand, by the time it became obvious that they were in the fix they were in, there were a lot of other problems, too. There were people -- they were worried about people drowning that had to be taken off roofs.
MALVEAUX: So you two believe that the federal response was fast enough?
CLINTON: All I'm saying is what I know the facts are today. There are hundreds of buses now engaged in the act of taking people from New Orleans to the Astrodome in Houston. And you and I are not in a position to make any judgment because we weren't there.
All I'm saying is the way they got stuck there, I see why they feel the way they do. But the people that put them there did it because they thought they were saving their lives. And then when the problems showed up, they had a lot of other people to save. Now they've got hundreds of buses. We just need to get them out. I think they'll all be out by tomorrow. Didn't they say they would all be out by tomorrow morning?
G.H.W. BUSH: Yes.
MALVEAUX: OK. Well, thank you very much. I'm sorry. We've run out of time. Thank you.
G.H.W. BUSH: Let me -- I just to want finish. I believe the administration is doing the right thing, and I believe they have acted in a timely fashion. And I understand people being critical. That happens all the time. And I understand some people wanted to make, you know, a little difficulty by criticizing the president and the team. But I don't want to sit here and not defend the administration which, in my view, has taken all the right steps. And they're facing problems that nobody could foresee: breaking of the levees and the whole dome thing over in New Orleans coming apart. People couldn't foresee that.
CLINTON: Yes, I think that's important to point out. Because when you say that they should have done this, that or the other thing first, you can look at that problem in isolation, and you can say that.
But look at all the other things they had to deal with. I'm telling you, nobody thought this was going to happen like this. But what happened here is they escaped -- New Orleans escaped Katrina. But it brought all the water up the Mississippi River and all in the Pontchartrain, and then when it started running and that levee broke, they had problems they never could have foreseen.
And so I just think that we need to recognize right now there's a confident effort under way. People are doing the best they can. And I just don't think it's the time to worry about that. We need to keep people alive and get them back to life -- normal life.
Source
I'll have to say--Clinton has avoided several opportunities to play politics with a couple of situations--and I think a bit better of him each time.
Intrepid wrote:What about the folks who actually built the structures?
most of the burial grounds are above ground due to swampy areas
they are floating in their caskets in some areas..
( sorry .. that was a sick toss of humor there.. hehe )
On the past, I suspect the tableau for blame is pretty wide, re decision making. Aside from trying to control nature along the Mississippi in the first place, and the many decisions since then by everybody from locals to presidents, I've been wondering what all those developers were thinking with those tall business buildings.. were their planning departments assuming there would never be more than a Hurricane 3? As someone who has spent most of her life in a major earthquake city, it is a bit hard for me to throw rocks just yet.
What I might get into blaming on has to do with the future - I think, presently, that it is nuts for everybody to be saying we'll rebuild. I can see rebuilding, but not right there. Especially given the soaking the rotting wood got, and the lay of the land, such as it is.
On the other hand, I haven't read Farmerman's post on some thread - I think he expressed the opposite view and had ideas for repositioning a whole new levee; I saw the post flash before my eyes as whatever thread it was shut off and I had stuff to do.
However the arguments on that go, I think there should now be serious cogitation on the matter.
Hmmm - humans seldom seem to cogitate on such things - but just build and rebuild! Unless it is impossible, like Pompeii.
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.
Hopefully, with global warming-type stuff and attendant extreme weather, seeming to be a reality, whatever the argy-bargying about cause, refineries and such might be moved to higher ground, though?
Welllllllllll, after I've tried to avoid the blame business, or at least spread it, for several hours, I got an email from a friend a few minutes ago with articles that sway my thinking to emphasize more recent blame. But... I'll let it go for tonight, am so not in the mood.
On moving refineries to higher ground, I am so ignorant on the mechanics of that. But geez, I did see one photo sometime yesterday on some newspaper's photo files, perhaps the Chronicle's, who knows, but a rather nice photograph compositionally, rather painterly... with wretched content... a single house roof, presumably with a house beneath it, surrounded by water with oil sheen all through it..
not so good for the fishies and birdies either.
I don't recall where the exact location was, re New Orleans/refineries.
dlowan wrote:Hopefully, with global warming-type stuff and attendant extreme weather, seeming to be a reality, whatever the argy-bargying about cause, refineries and such might be moved to higher ground, though?
That's not so certain. The thing which makes the Mississippi corridor between Baton Rouge and New Orleans so attractive for refineries is that the big tankers can sail right up to Lake Pontchartrain, and off-load to facilities that fill river barges, which then head right up the river to the refineries. The catastropic collapse of a levee in the first phase of the flooding was at the 17th street canal, which is right where the barges enter to head for the the river. That being said, the entire area, even those portions above sea level, were endangered, because the Mississippi is confined to a river bed too small for the volume of water. In normal times, the city needs levees to protect itself from the river level. All of the efforts to keep the Mississippi in its current bed result from the intent to maintain the status quo in an area heavily populated, but more significantly, with heavy investment in refineries and chemical plants (the later of which use refinery products). I wrote a brief sysnopsis of this problem, about which i have researched and read for twenty years,
here, in a terrible example of thread diversion.
Setanta
Thank you for sharing all your knowledge. I'm very impressed ;-)
back in 1979 I worked for the army corp of engr., liking to be a mouse in that office today
I almost got hired by them in, I think, '82 - I was at the top of the list for new land arch type person (who knows, maybe the only applicant) in our city's office, but there was a hiring freeze. I probably wouldn't have taken the job as the drive there was long and the office was, as I remember, in a dark basement, empty of people except for the interviewer, and the interview and interviewer depressed me.
Osso
Osso, is this the reference you were referring to? Set's map of the mouth of the mississippi river and the change that would solve the problem?
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=58648&start=50
BBB
No, I'll have to look at that too. It was something Farmerman posted. And I just checked Set's Major Thread Diversion and asked for updates, will read that in the morning.
Time to call it a day here.
