A new low...even for liberal anti-war protesters

What on earth are you talking about, tico? What 'premise' is refered to?

You said her position is anti-Israel and anti-jew. Yet her position is held by many Israeli jews.

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I think those protesters were at the wrong place and behaved inappropriately.

All four of them.

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Ticomaya wrote:

dlowan wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Witless? This coming from people who think they are patriotic because they want the US to lose the Iraq war?

I think the anti-war demonstrators are hindering the war effort. In particular to me, it's anti-US to say the things Sheehan has said. That may just be my opinion to which you don't agree ... so be it. But her anti-Israel statements can't be denied. She is, therefore, anti-Jew in my estimation. And she doesn't just oppose the policies of the current administration of Israel. She insists Israel should withdraw from "the land of Palestine."

dlowan wrote:
Lol - and, as far as I know, the US isn't a race.

Did anyone say it was?

Yes, you did.

Ticomaya wrote:
[Racism? She's anti-US and anti-Israel ... that's part of her message. And its that part that's being highlighted by the right.

Wrong, I did not. What I did was question your statement that we were accusing her of racism. I questioned your statement (note the question mark after the word "racism" when I typed it), as if to say, "what the hell are you talking about," not "how can you question her rascism?" I thought the context (my pointing out what we've done is identify her anti-US and anti-Israel statements) would have been enough, but I didn't count on you trying to claim I said the "US is a race". I've not accused her of being rascist, unless you feel her being anti-Jew is rascist. She is certainly anti-US and anti-Israel, which has nothing to do with rascism. Is this clear to you now?

Helping some of you folks with reading comprehension is a full-time job.

Then have a look at the stuff your friendly chief slimers write.

And tell me they are not accusing her of racism - trumpeting the unsubstantiated accusations with joyous glee, in fact.

Are you saying you do not agree with them?

That is interesting - ad not something I had picked up from your posts which seemed to be joining in happily.

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Cast them out from among us! Lacerate their retinas with filthy garden tools and place their first born male children in uncomfortable positions.

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Tico

You have fallen into the trap. Your logic being we are at war so its anti-USA to talk against the war, is the same miserable logic used over 40 years ago. We dishonor the dead if we don't finish our job here: here being vietnam.

We didn't finish that job as we will not finish this one. If it is possible, this war is being managed far worse than vietnam.

As for Cindy Sheehan, all the sliming and accusations of weird statements made by her, if they indeed were are hardly the issue. She has asked one buring question: MR. PRESIDENT, FOR WHAT NOBLE CAUSE DID MY SON DIE?

If you can answer that without falling back on the bulls..t about terrorists or wmd or regime change, I'd surely like to hear it. Casey Sheehan, like so many youngsters joined to foght bin Laden in Afghanistan not Iraq.

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dlowan wrote:

Then have a look at the stuff your friendly chief slimers write.

And tell me they are not accusing her of racism - trumpeting the unsubstantiated accusations with joyous glee, in fact.

Are you saying you do not agree with them?

That is interesting - ad not something I had picked up from your posts which seemed to be joining in happily.

You know dlowan, this might go a heck of a lot faster if you'd just tell me what your talking about, rather than refer to "the stuff your friendly chief slimers write." I don't know to whom you are referring, or what they wrote.

But if "they" are claiming she's racist, please explain how that means I've agreed with them? What have I said that lead you to that conclusion?

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blatham wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
There is a huge anti-occupation movement within Israel itself. It's a bit of a head-twister trying to argue that these Israelis are therefore racist anti-semites.

And obviously, it makes no more sense to argue that someone outside of Israel (jew or non jew) holding that same opinion re the occupation must be anti-semitic or anti-Israel.

Israel is not proposing to withdraw from "the land of Palestine." Pulling back the occupation of the Gaza strip hardly constitutes this. So your premise is wrong.

What on earth are you talking about, tico? What 'premise' is refered to?

You said her position is anti-Israel and anti-jew. Yet her position is held by many Israeli jews.

How many Israeli jews think Israel should give back all the land it acquired in the Six Days War to the Palestinians? I'm not quite sure what Ms. Sheehan meant when she's said Irael should get out of "the land of Palestine," but I doubt she meant a unilateral pullback out of Gaza only (where Jews represent less than 1 percent of the population). I don't think Israel's disengagement plan will impress Hamas, and that seems to be Ms. Sheehan's goal.

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Seems to be her goal . . . yet despite the implicit doubt, you feel justified in an absolute condemnation of the woman as racist? You specifically state that her being "anti-Israel" in your eyes makes here "anti-Jew." Play all the silly games you wish, that is an unwarranted accusation on your part.

I agree completely that Israel should cede all of the territory taken in the six day war. I therefore confidently expect you to label me antisemitic.

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I agree with that as well. Stolen land, ill-gotten.

Cycloptichorn

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Setanta wrote:

Seems to be her goal . . . yet despite the implicit doubt, you feel justified in an absolute condemnation of the woman as racist? You specifically state that her being "anti-Israel" in your eyes makes here "anti-Jew." Play all the silly games you wish, that is an unwarranted accusation on your part.

Is there a reasonable conclusion to reach when one is anti-Israel other than they are anti-Jew?

Quote:

I agree completely that Israel should cede all of the territory taken in the six day war. I therefore confidently expect you to label me antisemitic.

If the shoe fits, wear it proudly.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

I agree with that as well. Stolen land, ill-gotten.

Cycloptichorn

You can wear those shoes too.

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Ticomaya wrote:

How many Israeli jews think Israel should give back all the land it acquired in the Six Days War to the Palestinians?

Ever heard of Meretz? Third largest party of Israel in 1992. Still 5% of the vote now. And "Peace Now"? There's lots of Israelis who feel Israel should withdraw from all occupied territories.

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I feel exactly the same way about the 16th and 17th century "plantations" of Scots Protestants on land in Ulster stolen from the native Irish population. The occupation is now ratified by long residence--it would be foolish to attempt to require the Protestant Irish to leave what has become their homeland, it is too late to remedy that evil.

It is not too late to remedy the evil of the theft of Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights. Initially, the Israeli government willfully settled new immigrants (largely, Jews from the Soviet Union) on that territory, armed them heavily and then hijacked all the water rights necessary to make barren land fertile. As Cyclo puts it, ill-gotten. It is not too late to restore the ill-gotten gains of the Six Day War.

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I guess the Israeli-Jewish voters of Meretz are "anti-Jew", in Tico's logic.

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Quote:

You can wear those shoes too.

Incorrect. You would think one who so often relies upon accuracy of words in order to win arguments would realize the fallacy of equating Anti-zionism with anti-Semitism.

Cycloptichorn

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Ticomaya wrote:

Is there a reasonable conclusion to reach when one is anti-Israel other than they are anti-Jew?

This is of a piece with the contention that those who scorn the current, venal administration of this nation are anti-American. It's horsie poop, to put it nicely. Being opposed to the policies of the Israeli government does not make someone "anti-Jew," it only makes them "anti-Iraeli government policy."

Quote:

If the shoe fits, wear it proudly.

The shoe doesn't fit. However, you should start wearing some loafers labeled: "Willing to stoop to any depths to slander others for partisan reasons."

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tico

Pre 6 day war boundaries are proposed by many Israelis. There is quite an assortment of 'peace movement' organizations active. Oddly, the American press covers this element of Israeli politics far less often than does Ha'aretz, for example.

It is by no means settled that Sharon's pullout from Gaza is as altruistic (or even pragmatic) as PR associated with it suggest. Whether the Palestinians are going to be left with the integrity, contiguity and infrastructure to realistically build a nation is being questioned by lots of thoughtful people here and there. I won't even mention that Sharon's son just got indicted for corruption nor will I bother quoting statements from the son previously which explicitly point to Sharon playing tricks with the perception of what he is up to.

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Quote:

Oddly, the American press covers this element of Israeli politics far less often than does Ha'aretz, for example.

Sir, this is because they (Israel) manages the American news in an amazing fashion; by sending pre-packaged, high-production value news pieces to American news companies, free of charge, Israel controls how every event in their country is displayed in a pro-Israeli fashion on American TV.

The American news co's. love it b/c it is basically free to them; a professionally produced piece which can take up a significant amount of airtime without any overhead for the station at all. Eventually all the news shown on TV is pro-Israeli; this has been a strategy of theirs for at least 20 years.

Cycloptichorn

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Ticomaya wrote:

Is there a reasonable conclusion to reach when one is anti-Israel other than they are anti-Jew?

Whoa Nelly! Tico, this surprises me coming from you. Let's see, would being against Sudan mean that you were a racist? Anti-Saudi Arabia = anti-semitic? (Semites include more than just Jews) Anti-Mexico = racist against hispanics?

So to your original question, the answer is yes. One can be against the actions of Israel, even against its very existence, and still not be anti-Jew. There are a lot of problems with the way things have been handled in that part of the world that should directly conflict with the American sense of justice. One can see that without being "anti-Jew".

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Setanta wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
Is there a reasonable conclusion to reach when one is anti-Israel other than they are anti-Jew?

This is of a piece with the contention that those who scorn the current, venal administration of this nation are anti-American. It's horsie poop, to put it nicely. Being opposed to the policies of the Israeli government does not make someone "anti-Jew," it only makes them "anti-Iraeli government policy."

I have said I know she's anti-Israel .. she is therefore anti-Zionism. Because of that I have concluded she's anti-Jewish. You don't agree, and I don't care.

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A new low...even for liberal anti-war protesters

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