Born Gay?

Setanta wrote:

This is more than a little naïve, and an example of your appalling ignorance of the nuances of political positions in the United States--appalling because you so frequently comment as though you were well-informed.

However ignorant I may be of the finer points of American culture, and however authoritative your expertise on it may be, I suspect it's an independent issue from whatever ticks people off about my opinions. I'm frequently getting reactions similar to yours from my German correspondents, who find me just as appalling. I also observe that you, too, appall some of your American correspondents on a regular basis. Personally, I can think of worse accusations than that -- My experience is that when people never appall, they usually have nothing to say.

That said, thanks for your sketch of Columbus's gay community, and of the opinions its members hold.

0 Replies

neologist wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
neologist wrote:
Bella Dea wrote:
Of course you didn't. Some guy a long time ago decided to take the stories and parables of Jesus and create the Bible. And from then on people took the damn thing literally and it got translated wrong and made into something it was never intended to be.
Explain.

I just did. What else do you want?
Not impressed. Which guy? What people? Translated wrong in what way?

C'mon. Show your stuff. Even Joe Sixpack can see yer bluffin.

Are you kidding? I don't know who wrote it. But any Joe Sixpack can tell you that it wasn't written in English and there isn't any way some of it was lost in translation or mistranslated.

And it's ok that I didn't impress you. I wasn't trying to impress anyone.

0 Replies

Thomas wrote:

However ignorant I may be of the finer points of American culture, and however authoritative your expertise on it may be, I suspect it's an independent issue from whatever ticks people off about my opinions. I'm frequently getting reactions similar to yours from my German correspondents, who find me just as appalling. I also observe that you, too, appall some of your American correspondents on a regular basis. Personally, I can think of worse accusations than that -- My experience is that when people never appall, they usually have nothing to say.

That said, thanks for your sketch of Columbus's gay community, and of the opinions its members hold.

Why am i not surprised?

You are more than welcome, Thomas, i am willing to make any effort necessary to scorn and belittle your political opinions, and am gladdened to know that you appreciate the effort.

0 Replies

Bella Dea wrote:

Are you kidding? I don't know who wrote it. But any Joe Sixpack can tell you that it wasn't written in English and there isn't any way some of it was lost in translation or mistranslated.

Exactly why I have no idea what you are trying to say. You are so eager to make a point, you don't bother to think if it makes sense.

0 Replies

neologist wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
Are you kidding? I don't know who wrote it. But any Joe Sixpack can tell you that it wasn't written in English and there isn't any way some of it was lost in translation or mistranslated.
Exactly why I have no idea what you are trying to say. You are so eager to make a point, you don't bother to think if it makes sense.

Oh for gods sake, seriously...if you can't figure out that I meant to say "wasn't" then you really aren't worth talking to anyway. I'd rather not deal with your empty head tonight.

Believe what you want. And condemn everyone else to hell. Rolling Eyes

0 Replies

Bella Dea wrote:

neologist wrote:
Bella Dea wrote:
Are you kidding? I don't know who wrote it. But any Joe Sixpack can tell you that it wasn't written in English and there isn't any way some of it was lost in translation or mistranslated.
Exactly why I have no idea what you are trying to say. You are so eager to make a point, you don't bother to think if it makes sense.

Oh for gods sake, seriously...if you can't figure out that I meant to say "wasn't" then you really aren't worth talking to anyway. I'd rather not deal with your empty head tonight.

Believe what you want. And condemn everyone else to hell.

You parrot what you think others are saying; but you don't really know who wrote what you say you believe. You don't have the courtesy to check your posts for readability. And you think my head is empty. Interesting.

BTW, there is no such place as hell. I couldn't condemn you even if I wanted to. And I'd much rather keep you around for comic relief.

0 Replies

[quote="neologist]BTW, there is no such place as hell. I couldn't condemn you even if I wanted to. And I'd much rather keep you around for comic relief.[/quote]

Amazing juxtapositioning, here, Neo.

0 Replies

Quote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
[quote="neologist]BTW, there is no such place as hell. I couldn't condemn you even if I wanted to. And I'd much rather keep you around for comic relief.

Amazing juxtapositioning, here, Neo.

You're right, again, Frank. That would be hell.

0 Replies

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." Leviticus 20:13

Frank said.....Jesus did not imply anything about the laws. He said something very, very specific about them:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE." Matthew 5: 17ff

My opinion....When Jesus says he is the fulfillment of the law what do you think he means? The wages of sin is death. Somebody's going to pay the price (even for the smallest letter of the law). In fact somebody already has paid the price.

Jesus paid the price. He died in the flesh so that the sins of the flesh have been paid for. His death didn't give license to people to sin. He gave them forgiveness. This protects us from the extremes of lawlessness because the law hasn't changed. God will judge the spirit, but for those who believe and trust in his mercy they will find forgiveness through what Jesus did on the cross and receive life everlasting.
This also protects us from the extremes of self righteousness. Those people who think they can, no, who believe they have a right to throw stones and stand in judgement of others because they believe they are somehow better than anyone else. Only Jesus was that good, only he was that perfect and he advocated selfsacrifice and forgiveness.

Further.....Frank, You asked if I wanted to debate this issue in the other thread on abortion. I decided not to persue it because I felt it would just end up in an argument about what to believe and IMO people are free to believe what they want. A person has to follow their conscience.
I only mention it here because I was bothered about how you are concentrating on the law and ignoring what Jesus has done. There is more to the bible than the law. God loves us.

I checked fulfillment out with the concordance. There are numerous passages there about how love is the fulfillment of the law. The bible says God is love. When you see Jesus you see love personified- meakness, kindness, forgiveness, sacrifice. It would seem if you follow after love you follow after God.
The bible says....Rom 13:8-10.. he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
All I know is that the bible says Jesus is to be our example. Jesus forgave people of their sins. Jesus encouraged his followers to obey the commandments.

0 Replies

auroreII wrote:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." Leviticus 20:13

Frank said.....Jesus did not imply anything about the laws. He said something very, very specific about them:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE." Matthew 5: 17ff

My opinion....When Jesus says he is the fulfillment of the law what do you think he means?

Where does Jesus say he is the "fulfillment of the law?"

0 Replies

Matt5:17 where Jesus says "Think not that I am come to destroy the the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Grammatically doesn't fulfill refer back to the law?

0 Replies

auroreII wrote:

Matt5:17 where Jesus says "Think not that I am come to destroy the the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Grammatically doesn't fulfill refer back to the law?

Aurore...let's take this slowly.

I already quoted the passage you quote above. I've quoted it several times...in its full form. So allow me to do it again.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE." Matthew 5: 17ff

Now you wrote:

[...When Jesus says he is the fulfillment of the law what do you think he means? [/quote]

I asked where does Jesus say he is the fulfillment of the law.

In this quote...he says he has come to fulfill the law (whatever that means)...

...but specifically notes that "..."...until Heaven and Earth pass away..."...nothing will have been fulfilled. Until that happens...nothing changes in the law...not one word is done away with...not one letter of one word...not one stroke of one letter.

So...back to my question. Where does Jesus say he is the fulfillment of the law?

0 Replies

If Jesus did not fulfil the law, what is the reason for a new commandment? (John 13:34,35)

Why would Jesus, in effect, sum up the law as he did in Matthew 22: 37-40?

And why did the early Christians not make sacrifices at the temple but rather offered up a 'sacrifice of praise'? (Hebrews 13:15)

0 Replies

neologist wrote:

If Jesus did not fulfil the law, what is the reason for a new commandment? (John 13:34,35)

Why would Jesus, in effect, sum up the law as he did in Matthew 22: 37-40?

And why did the early Christians not make sacrifices at the temple but rather offered up a 'sacrifice of praise'? (Hebrews 13:15)

Beats the stuffings out of me, Neo.

Remember...I'm the agnostic here.

But I will make some guesses.

Quote:

If Jesus did not fulfil the law, what is the reason for a new commandment? (John 13:34,35)

Maybe John just made this up. Most scholarship indicates that John was written long after Jesus was gone...and most probably not by the John who was the "beloved." This "John" may never have even met anyone who ever met Jesus...and simply made stuff up.

The Jesus Seminar has excluded almost every word attributed to Jesus in John from what it considers likely that Jesus ever said.

But even supposing that Jesus did "give a new commandment"...are you saying in order to add a new "commmandment" to old law had to be "fulfilled."

And if you are....WHY???????

Quote:

Why would Jesus, in effect, sum up the law as he did in Matthew 22: 37-40?

Neo...please.

There is nothing in that passage to indicate that Jesus had "fulfilled the law."

Neo...we don't even have a reasonable explanation of what it would mean to "fulfill the law."

Quote:

And why did the early Christians not make sacrifices at the temple but rather offered up a 'sacrifice of praise'? (Hebrews 13:15)

For the same reason they didn't get circumcised or follow the dietary restrictions.

BECAUSE PAUL TOLD THEM THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO.

Jesus didn't.

0 Replies

Amazing.

0 Replies