Born Gay?

Yeah Phoenix, my Catholic grandma gave me the ol' "use your right hand!" treatment as a kid. She'd slap me and call me names.
I'm fairly young, and she still insists that my "left-handedness is a sign of the devil". I am so left-handed I can not even eat with my right hand. I broke my wrist ice-skating at 20 and had to be fed by my bf. haha: sad but true.

I'm glad there are people here to represent the gay population that are comfortable integrating God with who they are. It can be a really horrible experience to grow up gay/bisexual and be told that your God, what you believe in, finds you to be an abomination. It simply is not so.
God does not hate people, people hate people.

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My mother, I was told, when it became clear that I favored my left hand, began training me to use my right. My older brother was a leftie and she was always afraid of him hurting himself with knives, scissors, hammers, etc. because of how awkward he seemed to be.

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eoe wrote:

My mother, I was told, when it became clear that I favored my left hand, began training me to use my right. My older brother was a leftie and she was always afraid of him hurting himself with knives, scissors, hammers, etc. because of how awkward he seemed to be.

So, do you now mostly use your right hand? If you do, do you still feel you could do stuff w/ your left?

Just like everything else, there are degrees of being left-handed.

I write w/my left hand, but do practically everything else with my right.
My sister is very left handed, and uses her right hand seldom.

We are both called left handed by other people

Wait a minute! Maybe that would mean that gay and straight are not mutually exclusive..........nah, that's just CRAZY TALK.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

In any case...we have two homosexuals....RexRed and Sturgis...who are both theists and presumably both Christians...

...who feel their god...the Christian god...

...has no problem with homosexual conduct at all.

Do you agree with them?

Actually FrankApisa if you go back to the Worshiping God topic, I make clear that I do not classify myself a Christian, although others might.

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I was just reading backwards and found a few things I wanted to respond to.

First things first.

Thomas wrote:

material girl wrote:
If gay people are gay, how to they reproduce?Thats always confused me.

There are several possibilities. The first one I can pull off the top of my head is to look at it from a gene's point of view. Remember that evolution acts on the settings of individual genes. Each setting is selected for (or against) according to its average fitness. Therefore, if a certain setting for a gene gives many of its carriers an advantige and a few carriers a disadvantage, it still produces an advantage on average, so natural selection will prefer it. Now, suppose sexual orientation is controlled by a combination of genetic settings. Suppose that certain settings, considered seperately, produce a selective advantage for its carrier in most cases of settings -- but in a few specific combinations, those settings produce homosexuals, who don't reproduce with their same-sex partners. Under these conditions, the selective disadvantage to the homosexuals created by the few combinations would be outweighed by the selective advantage to all the other combinations.

You forgot to factor in one other thing.

Genes are not the sole reign of one being. People related to the homosexual may still be able to reproduce and they will have at least a few copies of the same genes that the homosexual has.

Therefore, the genetic settings for homosexuality aren't necessarily selected against. It's just there's no environmental pressure to select for or against the various genes that may or may not result in homosexuality.

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Chai Tea, my mother accomplished what she set out to do. I'm 100% right-handed.

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

You forgot to factor in one other thing.

Not quite -- I disclaimed any pretensions of completeness in the very beginning.

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Genes are not the sole reign of one being. People related to the homosexual may still be able to reproduce and they will have at least a few copies of the same genes that the homosexual has.

Therefore, the genetic settings for homosexuality aren't necessarily selected against. It's just there's no environmental pressure to select for or against the various genes that may or may not result in homosexuality.

You could have stated this even stronger: if a combination of genetic settings that made me a homosexual, but also made me a very good uncle, it would even be selected for. Since most genes impact more than one physiological feature, evolutionary tradeoffs like this are entirely possible.

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I haven't heard anyone use the term "Hobson's choice.'

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Sturgis wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
In any case...we have two homosexuals....RexRed and Sturgis...who are both theists and presumably both Christians...

...who feel their god...the Christian god...

...has no problem with homosexual conduct at all.

Do you agree with them?

Actually FrankApisa if you go back to the Worshiping God topic, I make clear that I do not classify myself a Christian, although others might.

You seem to be saying that you worship the god that Jesus worshipped...the god that calls homosexual activity an abomination worthy of immediate death.

If I am wrong about that...please say so clearly...and I will apologize.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

You seem to be saying that you worship the god that Jesus worshipped...the god that calls homosexual activity an abomination worthy of immediate death.

If I am wrong about that...please say so clearly...and I will apologize.

Not having personally known Jesus myself, I really do not know if he worshiped God. As I have attempted to indicate to you before, I find The Bible to be a guidebook. I do not take it verbatim. I look at it and try to understand the basic principles it outlines for life. In order for you to better understand my views you would need to be inside my brain. There is no way to explain how or why it is that I do feel that God has no objection to my sexuality. If you want to take the Bible literally then it also recommends incest as a way of procreating. The Bible is a confusing book and as I have explained in the past, throughout the years there have been several translations. There have also quite possibly been passages which defied translation and may have been cut from the original text, or even translators themselves may have dropped certain passages based on their own personal beliefs. Translations were done by human beings and in my view and basic understanding all human beings are flawed. None of is perfect.

Bottom line FrankApisa, I try to lead a good life, a decent life where I do not intentionally hurt anyone. This to me is what God is looking at. If I have sexual relations with a man and it is an expression of love then I do not believe God is going to zap me with a bolt of electrical from the sky. If I choose to break up a relationship then I have something to answer for. It is a matter of how I pursue my personal relationships...is it open and caring or is it with the intent of making an ill gotten profit or with the intent of hurting someone else.
I guess what it comes down to is you have (haven't I said this before?) your beliefs and I have mine. If someone does not believe in God I am not going to attack them. If someone has a political view dif.... never mind I failed on that one. The thing is I do not know (nor do you for that matter) what the after life really will hold for me and you. Maybe we aren't even really here and this is all the machinations of a deranged creatures imagination Shocked

. Perhaps Anne Rice had it right in her description in her book (I believe it was Queen of the Damned) when she explained all the souls woven over the globe like a spider web. Perhaps the Buddhist Bellhop is right and we are all nothing but a sack of bones suffering in our Earthly shell. Maybe we are on a penal colony and have to pay for our horrendous crimes against the great and all powerful Wqziiuihkjfdhwk. I stick with my beliefs, you get to have yours. What happens if we die and find out that somehow we were both right? It's possible.

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sturgis wrote:

Maybe we are on a penal colony and have to pay for our horrendous crimes against the great and all powerful Wqziiuihkjfdhwk. I stick with my beliefs, you get to have yours. What happens if we die and find out that somehow we were both right? It's possible.

Sure it is. The fact remains, that none of us know, and some of us are attempting to modify other peoples' lives so that they are consonant with a particular religious position. What is so disingenuous is that some people insist that their religious "take" on things is correct, when in reality, nobody really has a clue. THAT is what I find so obnoxious. Hey, I believe in "live and let live".

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Sturgis wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

You seem to be saying that you worship the god that Jesus worshipped...the god that calls homosexual activity an abomination worthy of immediate death.

If I am wrong about that...please say so clearly...and I will apologize.

Not having personally known Jesus myself, I really do not know if he worshiped God.

This gives new meaning to the words "cop out."

Quote:

As I have attempted to indicate to you before, I find The Bible to be a guidebook.

Well it certainly doesn't seem as though you do.

The god of that books specifically says:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

Quote:

I do not take it verbatim. I look at it and try to understand the basic principles it outlines for life.

Okay...talk about the passage I just cited for a bit...and tell me how you come to the conclusions you mention below.

Quote:

In order for you to better understand my views you would need to be inside my brain.

Not if you weren't so tangled up in rationalization. If you spoke truth...and reality...I'd be better understand your views.

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Get over yourself FrankApisa. Clearly no matter what I write, if it does not fall completely in line with whatever ideas you have, I will be the bad guy. You do not read everything I write and then you snip and clip little bits which you then proceed to attack. There is no way to communicate an idea to you since you seem to have chosen to hate the world.

And for the record...I do speak truth and reality. Perhaps they are not the truths you want or the reality which you have embraced; but, they are mine and I am quite content with them. Why does it bother you so that the God in my life is loving and caring?

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Sturgis wrote:

Get over yourself FrankApisa. Clearly no matter what I write, if it does not fall completely in line with whatever ideas you have, I will be the bad guy. You do not read everything I write and then you snip and clip little bits which you then proceed to attack.

Normally...what I do is to quote EVERYTHING you wrote....and make comments on it.

Frankly, your logic is terrible.

But I am not attacking you...I am discussing.

Quote:

There is no way to communicate an idea to you since you seem to have chosen to hate the world.

Hate the world????

I am one of the most happy, content individuals on this planet. I have been very, very lucky in life...and the amount of enjoyment I get out of the many things I do is enormous.

Where do you get these ideas from?

Quote:

And for the record...I do speak truth and reality.

No...you don't. And you apparently are blind to that.

You claim your god is the god described in the Bible....and you claim that god has no problem with the fact that you engage in homosexual activities.

That makes no sense.

The god you worship considers your activities to be an abomination.

Argue if you want...but do not for one second think your are speaking truth and reality...because you are far from doing that.

Quote:

Perhaps they are not the truths you want or the reality which you have embraced; but, they are mine and I am quite content with them.

I have no problem with you being content....but I most assuredly do have a problem with you asserting that the god of the Bible has no issues with homosexual activity...because that is absolutely absurd.

Quote:

Why does it bother you so that the God in my life is loving and caring?

It wouldn't for a second bother me in any way if you wanted to suppose there is a God...and suppose the Gid is loving and caring.

But if you are going to try to peddle the savage, barbaric god of the Bible as that God in an Internet forum in which I am a participant...you are going to be taken to task on it.

Now...if you want to discuss this...let's discuss it. If you want to get into a hissy fit because I've called the absurdity of your arguments to your attention...you've got a problem on your hands, because it ain't gonna work here.

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Jesus accepts that all are called to him....

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

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real life wrote:

All sorts of creatures in nature eat their young. What's your point? That people should behave like animals?

When ancient peoples hit rock bottom, the eating of their young was the last resort to stay alive. Your god's punishment to his people for disobedience was to force them to eat their young through war and strife.

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InfraBlue wrote:

real life wrote:
All sorts of creatures in nature eat their young. What's your point? That people should behave like animals?

When ancient peoples hit rock bottom, the eating of their young was the last resort to stay alive. Your god's punishment to his people for disobedience was to force them to eat their young through war and strife.

The fact that God knew ahead of time that this would occur and warned them about it, doesn't show that He "forced" them to do it. Just the opposite.

God warned them of the evil consequences if they continued in sin and repeatedly called them to turn from their sin.

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Intrepid wrote:

Jesus accepts that all are called to him....

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Perhaps Jesus does....

...but here is what the god Jesus worshipped has to say:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

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"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

Ah hem, Frank, if I may quote you from another discussion.

Frank said.....
Jesus did not imply anything about the laws. He said something very, very specific about them:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE." Matthew 5: 17ff

My reply was....When Jesus says he is the fulfillment of the law what do you think he means? The wages of sin is death. Somebody's going to pay the price (even for the smallest letter of the law). In fact somebody already has paid the price.
-----------------------
Jesus paid the price. He died in the flesh so that the sins of the flesh have been paid for. His death didn't give license to people to sin. He gave them forgiveness. This protects us from lawlessness because the law hasn't changed. God will judge the spirit. Those who believe and trust in his mercy will find forgiveness through what Jesus did on the cross and receive life everlasting.
This also protects us from self righteousness, those people who think they can, no, who believe they have a right to throw stones and stand in judgement of others because they believe they are somehow better than anyone else. God will judge. Only Jesus was that good, only he was that perfect and he advocated selfsacrifice and forgiveness.

There is a story Jesus tells about a couple of religious men in the temple who watch as a publican (I think that's what he was,- memory not always so good- a publican was a tax collector and tax collectors had a reputation of being corrupt) comes into the temple and simply asks God to forgive him, a sinner. The two religious men then prayed to God thanking God that were not like this publican. Jesus says that it was the publican, not the religious men, who was justified by his prayers.

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auroreII wrote:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

Ah hem, Frank, if I may quote you from another discussion.

Frank said.....
Jesus did not imply anything about the laws. He said something very, very specific about them:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE." Matthew 5: 17ff

My reply was....When Jesus says he is the fulfillment of the law what do you think he means?

Let us discuss that.

Cite the passage where Jesus says he is the fulfillment of the law.

Quote:

The wages of sin is death. Somebody's going to pay the price (even for the smallest letter of the law). In fact somebody already has paid the price.
-----------------------

Unless you can back this up with something other than a quote from the Bible...I will have to take it with a box full of salt.

Quote:

Jesus paid the price. He died in the flesh so that the sins of the flesh have been paid for. His death didn't give license to people to sin. He gave them forgiveness. This protects us from lawlessness because the law hasn't changed. God will judge the spirit. Those who believe and trust in his mercy will find forgiveness through what Jesus did on the cross and receive life everlasting.
This also protects us from self righteousness, those people who think they can, no, who believe they have a right to throw stones and stand in judgement of others because they believe they are somehow better than anyone else. God will judge. Only Jesus was that good, only he was that perfect and he advocated selfsacrifice and forgiveness.

This is little more than propaganda. If you have something specific to cite and discuss...do so.

Quote:

There is a story Jesus tells about a couple of religious men in the temple who watch as a publican (I think that's what he was,- memory not always so good- a publican was a tax collector and tax collectors had a reputation of being corrupt) comes into the temple and simply asks God to forgive him, a sinner. The two religious men then prayed to God thanking God that were not like this publican. Jesus says that it was the publican, not the religious men, who was justified by his prayers.

If you have a point to make with the story...do the work necessary to find the passage...and actually initiate a discussion about it.

What is the passage...and what is the point you were trying to make.

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