Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 03:04 pm
Why does it matter whether people are born gay or not? It doesn't hurt you or your life in any way and so why does anyone else care? In fact, one might say that gay couples enhance your life by fueling the economy with their disposable income. :wink:
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 04:01 pm
.....yeah bella...that's not even mentioning the fact that when gays move into a neighbourhood the property values skyrocket jk. Cool
0 Replies
 
auroreII
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 06:25 pm
Cite the passage where Jesus says he is the fulfillment of the law.

John 11:25
I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

If the law says the wages of sin is death then how can one hope to live and never die? The law would be a lie. You'd have to be perfect or someone else who is perfect could fulfill the law for you, but where would one find such a person? How can Jesus say he is the resurrection if he does not fulfill the law?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 07:05 pm
auroreII wrote:
Cite the passage where Jesus says he is the fulfillment of the law.

John 11:25
I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

If the law says the wages of sin is death then how can one hope to live and never die? The law would be a lie. You'd have to be perfect or someone else who is perfect could fulfill the law for you, but where would one find such a person? How can Jesus say he is the resurrection if he does not fulfill the law?


This is an interesting passage...and your questions are interesting questions albeit someone convoluted and illogical...

...but I would prefer to hold off commenting on any of this until after you cite the passage where Jesus says that he is the fulfillment of the law.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2005 07:13 pm
Bella Dea wrote:
Why does it matter whether people are born gay or not?


This is a good question, and the answer is not necessarily intuitive. Those who consider homosexuality to be wrong, to be an "abomination," will always characterize it as "a life-style choice." On such a basis, they can continue to assert that it is abnormal, and to suggest that homosexual men and women can be "rescued" from their inquity, and brought back to the light of true religion. In terms of doctrinal orthodoxy, a person who considers homosexuality to be an abomination based upon scriptural authority can never accept the premise that anyone is born a homosexual.

Quote:
It doesn't hurt you or your life in any way and so why does anyone else care? In fact, one might say that gay couples enhance your life by fueling the economy with their disposable income. :wink:


That cracks me up. In Columbus, Ohio, beginning about twenty years ago, the neighborhood immediately south of the downtown area, known as German Village, became a preferred neighborhood for homosexuals. Property values have skyrocketed since then, and in recent years, young families of professional men and women have moved into the area for precisely that reason. The homosexual community has been moving into the neighborhood just to the north of the downtown area for about a decade now, the Short North as it is known, and the same transformation is taking place. When i first came to this area almost twenty years ago, the Short North was a "hillybilly" neighborhood of small diners, sleazy honky tonk bars and crack whores peeking out of every alleyway. It has been fascinating to watch the change take place. Your observation about the disposable income of the homosexual community is very cogent.
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 05:32 am
Hmm; I was just wondering how much of the gay disposable income makes it into church collection plates? Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 05:46 am
Setanta wrote:
Those who consider homosexuality to be wrong, to be an "abomination," will always characterize it as "a life-style choice."

I agree. And conversely, the gay community has a political interest in homosexuality being viewed as hereditary, like gender or race. This would make it easier to use existing anti-discrimination laws to enforce their rights. Not opining which side is correct on this question -- just observing that both sides have a political stake in its answer.
0 Replies
 
eoe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 08:06 am
flushd wrote:
Hmm; I was just wondering how much of the gay disposable income makes it into church collection plates? Very Happy


Alot. Especially the Black Baptist church. It's loaded with gay men.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 08:57 am
Setanta wrote:
Those who consider homosexuality to be wrong, to be an "abomination," will always characterize it as "a life-style choice." On such a basis, they can continue to assert that it is abnormal, and to suggest that homosexual men and women can be "rescued" from their inquity, and brought back to the light of true religion. In terms of doctrinal orthodoxy, a person who considers homosexuality to be an abomination based upon scriptural authority can never accept the premise that anyone is born a homosexual.
Funny. I can. I also recognize the full meaning of the term Hobson's choice.

Are there any who would recommend homosexuality as a lifestyle knowing the medical and psychological cost?

There is also a spiritual cost. (If you believe the bible, that is.) So it may very well be a case of whether or not one is willing to suppress unhealthy urges for a greater good.

The gay folks I have met are kind and creative; mostly law abiding, if sometimes outrageous. They are also failing in their obligations to God.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 09:01 am
neologist wrote:
They are also failing in their obligations to God.


Says you.

And don't say "no, the bible" because God himself did not reach down and write the bible.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 09:10 am
neologist wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Those who consider homosexuality to be wrong, to be an "abomination," will always characterize it as "a life-style choice." On such a basis, they can continue to assert that it is abnormal, and to suggest that homosexual men and women can be "rescued" from their inquity, and brought back to the light of true religion. In terms of doctrinal orthodoxy, a person who considers homosexuality to be an abomination based upon scriptural authority can never accept the premise that anyone is born a homosexual.
Funny. I can. I also recognize the full meaning of the term Hobson's choice.

Are there any who would recommend homosexuality as a lifestyle knowing the medical and psychological cost?


In preference to celibacy????

I would...and I am straight arrow.


Quote:
There is also a spiritual cost. (If you believe the bible, that is.) So it may very well be a case of whether or not one is willing to suppress unhealthy urges for a greater good.


If by "greater good" you mean subscribing to a 2000+ year old morality...which any reasonable guess would ascribe to superstitious ancient humans....

...who would really care?



Quote:
The gay folks I have met are kind and creative; mostly law abiding, if sometimes outrageous.


That certainly comports well with the gays I've known.


Quote:
They are also failing in their obligations to God.


God????


There is a god...that cares if some people are sexually aroused by same sex partners.

Nah!

Can't be!

At least, that would be my guess.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 09:12 am
Bella Dea wrote:
neologist wrote:
They are also failing in their obligations to God.


Says you.

And don't say "no, the bible" because God himself did not reach down and write the bible.
Sorry; but if you believe 2Timothy 3:16, you would have to say the bible is inspired by God. Of course, you don't have to believe. Just don't say I thought of this all by myself.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 09:14 am
Of course you didn't. Some guy a long time ago decided to take the stories and parables of Jesus and create the Bible. And from then on people took the damn thing literally and it got translated wrong and made into something it was never intended to be.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 09:22 am
Bella Dea wrote:
Of course you didn't. Some guy a long time ago decided to take the stories and parables of Jesus and create the Bible. And from then on people took the damn thing literally and it got translated wrong and made into something it was never intended to be.
Explain.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 09:33 am
neologist wrote:
Bella Dea wrote:
Of course you didn't. Some guy a long time ago decided to take the stories and parables of Jesus and create the Bible. And from then on people took the damn thing literally and it got translated wrong and made into something it was never intended to be.
Explain.


I just did. What else do you want?
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 09:54 am
Regarding the altruism of the gay population, in 1984 gay men were deferred from donating blood due to the prevelance of HIV (then known at HTLV-III) in the male gay population. Not previously realising the sexual preferrences of routine blood donors, it came as a surprise to the medical community that upwards of 30% of our regular donors, those who donate every 8 weeks, were gay men.

They were not donating to get anything from it, they were doing it simply because it was an altruistic thing to do. The deferral of the gay population from the blood donor pool was necessary from an HIV prevention standpoint but the overall blood supply was severly impacted from deferring the gay men who were not HIV infected.
0 Replies
 
djbt
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 10:40 am
neologist wrote:
Are there any who would recommend homosexuality as a lifestyle knowing the medical and psychological cost?

That would be a bit of a loaded question, wouldn't it?

What medical and psychological costs are you referring to?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 10:41 am
Thomas wrote:
I agree. And conversely, the gay community has a political interest in homosexuality being viewed as hereditary, like gender or race. This would make it easier to use existing anti-discrimination laws to enforce their rights. Not opining which side is correct on this question -- just observing that both sides have a political stake in its answer.


This is more than a little naïve, and an example of your appalling ignorance of the nuances of political positions in the United States--appalling because you so frequently comment as though you were well-informed. A great many men and women in the homosexual community in the United States have objected to the contention that it is an hereditary trait on the basis that it can therefore be described as an hereditary disease, an obsessional mental illness. Those who take that point of view contend that their sexuality is still something which is both normal, and beyond their choice, being a product of environment and nuture. Such statements certainly have a political provenance--many of the more exteme statements include a claim that there is a hunt for "the gay gene" so that "breeders" can practice eugenics, and abort a fetus identified as having a "gay gene." The militant also point out that an identification of a "gay" genetic marker could be used by corporations in much the same way it is alleged that corporations will use other genetic information to deny employment based on a propensity for a genetic medical condition.

The homosexual community in the Columbus, Ohio area is large, and many of them are militant about homosexual rights and living conditions. It can provide an eye-opening education to get to know the community. When a dichotomous, black-white statement about politics looks like the simple explanation, it is almost always wrong. The responses of members of the homosexual community to the contention that homosexuality is an inherent trait are as diverse and differing as one would expect the response to a politically-charged issue to be in the larger community.

**********************

Neologist writes:

Quote:
Funny. I can [i.e., accept the premise that anyone is born a homosexual]. I also recognize the full meaning of the term Hobson's choice.

Are there any who would recommend homosexuality as a lifestyle knowing the medical and psychological cost?


But having stated that he can accept the premise, he refers to the "lifestyle" in his very next paragraph, and implies a universal medical and psychological "cost" (the implication residing in the lack of reference to exceptions). Whereas i don't contend that i can prove the contrary, without proof from Neo to the effect that there is a universal medical and psychological "cost," there is no reason for me to accept the contention.

**************************

For the record, i neither know nor care whether or not homosexuality arises from an immutable genetic cause. One needn't refer to genetics to determine whether or not homosexuals should be treated as any other citizen, nor to the morality of a narrow religious view--it is sufficient to have a sense of justice and to apply the enshrined premise in the United States that all citizens are equal.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 11:14 am
Bella Dea wrote:
neologist wrote:
Bella Dea wrote:
Of course you didn't. Some guy a long time ago decided to take the stories and parables of Jesus and create the Bible. And from then on people took the damn thing literally and it got translated wrong and made into something it was never intended to be.
Explain.


I just did. What else do you want?
Not impressed. Which guy? What people? Translated wrong in what way?

C'mon. Show your stuff. Even Joe Sixpack can see yer bluffin.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2005 11:31 am
djbt wrote:
neologist wrote:
Are there any who would recommend homosexuality as a lifestyle knowing the medical and psychological cost?

That would be a bit of a loaded question, wouldn't it?

What medical and psychological costs are you referring to?
A sample quote from John R.Diggs, Jr. MD, found here: http://www.massnews.com/past_issues/2000/9_Sept/900fist3.htm
Quote:
"The sexual practices of male homosexuality consist primarily of oral-genital contact and anal intercourse. These practices are inherently dangerous because of the proclivity to produce occult and overt physical trauma, often spreading sexually transmitted disease. The rectum is particularly vulnerable to sexual trauma, where breaks in the protective membrane barrier facilitate blood exchange and, in turn, the transfer of infectious agents. Furthermore, certain male homosexual practices, such as "fisting," i.e. the insertion of the entire hand into the recipient's anal canal, are likely to cause more serious injuries. Surgery has been required for some rectal injuries cause by insertion of "sex toys," such as vibrators.
Result of this Google search:
{ medical consequences of homosexual behavior }
You will find references to psychological consequences there as well.
0 Replies
 
 

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