what makes a woman?

snuff flicks are about killing the subject.. not screwing them...
right?

Sometimes just killing and sometimes screwing then killing.

Snuff films haven't been determined to be real or not.

You've lost me I'm afraid.These arguments have gone on in this way for years.

We are where we are.How did that happen over,I'd say,about 40 years under the jurisdiction of the various authorities who we can only presume either approved or have no authority.

And does that change the nature of woman.Thus what is a woman,if she has changed,is the result of the socialisation she had and porn is a part of that socialisation even at second or third remove.
By that I mean that even people who don't watch porn are influenced by it because it shifts the tone of society in a certain direction.

Could the question be what makes Western woman?

And does porn cause her to become returned to a previous type of woman from before Western woman was made?Not as far as monkeys but we could look at Roman woman who is an endless source of fascination in media generally.

PS.Ms Taylor is playing Western woman in Cleopatra.She isn't playing Cleopatra.Heaven forbid.They would ban that double quick.

oh

they are real.

Define western woman.
I have not been outside the us. So I am missing your point.
All I see are 'western women' with nothing to compare them to?

sw asks-

My goodness.Do you not know what I mean.Every author writes about her and every programme and movie depicts her.Shaw and Ibsen & Co examined her like a specimen.Woody Allen has had a good go.How do you think Cleopatra would have greeted your president given his rugged good looks and the power he wields?And if he came back in one piece to tell the tale you would impeach him.
Cleo was nothing like you ladies.

So what made woman known as Cleo.Poppaea might be an even better example.Helen of Troy probably had no teeth.

Western woman =Mrs Average.Middle of the road.
Swing voters.

good point.
VERY good point.


No . you will only find a handful of women like that here in america. Unfortunatly..

sw-

You see the point now.I can tell by that nice "Unfortunately".Right.

You have my idea of Western woman.Now-does porn shift her bearings and if so,as I think must be the case,in which direction and is it a direction we want to go for?Should we aim for Florence Nightingale (although dark rumours float about her starched white uniform these days) or say dear little Sabina Poppeae,the woman Nero adored.Or should we wobble along the top of the fence for a while and see what happens.

One can easily tell from that "Unfortunately" which direction sw would like to go and it is a direction "iknow" doesn't fancy.

I think women should carry their sexual power on their sleeves.
I think men should avoid women who DONT do just that.
Either sex, wehter it be men or women, should avoid the repressed , sexually embarassed person. They harbor some serious sexual issues that can damage and ruin a relationship.
I dont personally believe that there is any validity to the concept of ' virginity before marriage' making a person ' pure and honarable'.
BUT- thats just my little opinion


as for the western woman and porn.
Given the sexual stance that is drilled into our heads from birth i think that porn only pushes her further in that direction. Since the western woman is taught that open displays of sex , sexual attraction, ( meaning.. kissing , touching, etc..) are impure and wrong, and should be something to look away from, avoid and allow to embarass you..
Porn would only fuel that fire.
You cant go from the above description , to something as blatent as porn and expect it to 'enhance' a person with that background and those social ideas embedded in her head.

Does that make sense?

Yes it does.But what do you say about how and why are these two forces are in collision.I'll accept the strain it causes if it is worth it.

Just take advertising.To what extent has that been changed since the boundaries of obscenity were pushed back.And the beauty industry generally.And we do have that "Unfortunately" and "iknow"'s cry from the wilderness.

You shoulda bin a Roman Empress sw.You're a long way from "Lie back and think of England dear" and that wasn't so long ago.That was 20's Western woman telling her daughter how to handle the first night on the Paris honeymoon.

My first idea is to say that it is because the western woman feels she should be sexually 'free-er " and every inch of her being feels 'smaller' because she thinks she shouldnt be. That she should hold her sexuality on a higher pedastile then it is allowed and the repression she was taught is painful.

But, given that for a woman to realize that, she would have had to abandon the western idea of sex FIRST.. my original statement isnt valid.
I guess the only answer I can give is that she is embarassed and thinks that these women are threats to her and are REAL ( as in right next door) and wil destroy her life. She may think that they are sinners, or are only products of sex abuse because overly sexual behavior is unnatural. And there for must be a product of ' improper and unsafe' raising.
They may even think that it is a sign of psychological issues. That the woman who does porn is insecure, she feels lower, was told she wasnt worthy, etc..
But,, having said all that, i still can not think of a valid reason..





I have had nights where it was more entertaining to think of england..

There's real honesty in that.

Do you think that "these women are threats to her" because she can't compete.I feel like that about "sports heroes".And movie stars.That's why I laugh at them.It's why I love sport.Watching them busting a gut.And when they get indignant when the referee makes a wrong decision really has me rolling on the floor.As if it matters.But I admire their skill.



I would imagine it is different for women but if you take possibilities of conception out of the equation porn and sport are similar in that they are just the exercise of muscles at a high pitch.And it does look easier for the ladies which is as it should be.I don't think they need to train 7 hours a day to be able to perform to a high standard.And I wouldn't dream of suggesting what they do need to do.I'm a bloke.

That's why I agree with The Pope.

I really think you don't know much about women, spendius.

I'm about as Western as one can get - and my grandmothers and great-grandmothers (all women born in the 1800's) woulda laughed you out of the house for suggesting that they weren't in touch with their sexuality - and the power that afforded them. They knew - and they used it.

I never said anything about your forbears E.I simply quoted a very well known cliche in order to highlight a change in attitudes.Are there any well known cliches in your family.Why would I be interested in your granny's sexuality.We are discussing changing attitudes not your granny.It's a philosophy thread not a tennis match.We are not trying to score points with assertions which we have no way of checking.That's a complete waste of time and usually resolves itself into who can shout loudest.Monte Python showed the strength of that many years ago.

If you dive into a little psychology , then the basic ballpark style answer would be yes.
Inferiority to another equal sexual being is devistating. Espically when you feel inferior because the other person is doing something you know how to, can do, but wont. ( for what ever reason.. it doesnt turn you on, it isnt in your religous bounds .. etc. )





You have to take ALOT out of that equasion to get to that similarity.
But I see where you are going..
It is diffrent for a woman in the sense that , wether we realise it or not, we are competitive sexualy 24-7. We dress up, we put on make up, we 'hold ourselves' diffrently when in public, we change our speech patterns depending on who we are talking to..
We are forever baiting the mate. Even when we are married. There is quite a bit of psychology behind that behavior, but for the sake of a short post I wont go into that. Not only that.. im no psych major. ;-)
But in this constant competitiveness, there is 'ranking' so to speak.
Actors and other stars being the highest in the sexual attraction ranking.
Sexual attractiveness isnt only about what you do with your clothes on, it just begins there.
To the woman, a porn star can be viewed as a serious threat because she has jumped rank in the sense that she is now DOING what we dress for to make people percieve we do.
To a woman, her spouse is her ... i hate to say this , but.. her PRIZE for that behavior. The dress, the attitude, the behavior.. all put together won her a husband. The combo was right and WOW what a prize.
To see her husband fantasizing over another woman , in a sense, takes away that feeling of accomplishment on a truly deep level and feels to her as if she is lower then. This porn star is a threat because the private actions only SHE shares with her husband, he is now doing with the idea of someone else.
That can feel like a cheat.

This is just an observation. Not any truth. I hope people who read this can understand that it is just an idea.. and not MY way of thinking..

I will get chewed for such a blanket statement.. but hey.. its my opinion.

I don't like the tone this thread is taking. No offence to anyone, but who the hell has the right to make judgements about so-called 'Western women" versus dead broads in Rome. That is just ridiculous to me

If we start talking about 'Western women' and 'European women' and 'Asian women'.....well, pretty soon someone is going to say something like 'Primitive women'. That's just vulgar, I think.

Also, I risk some flaming for this, but a man doesn't know shiot about what a woman is. He simply does not. Unless he was born with a vagina and the rest of the equipment, forget it. This goes for men who undergo sex changes as well. He may have the 'heart and soul' of a woman, but a woman is more than that. Hate me all ya want for that comment: I've discussed this with transgendered people, and ultimately they all agree anyways. This is why they suffer so.

What makes a woman is not social conditioning:
We can say it is; but that's just part of it (take it out and I'm still a woman).
I say this bc a lesbian is a woman (whether society thinks of her so or not); even though she may/may not conform to what everyone thinks a woman is supposed to be.

Also, I don't believe that simply because a woman has rejected/repulsed by certain things means she is threatened in a sexual way. It does not have to be that she is threatened by competition: is she truly wants nothing to do with it, why would she care about the competition for said thing?! Doesn't make sense.

Like has been said here many times, rape/violence is about power and control. Not sex.

Sometimes fear is a simple rejection. End of story. No repression, or secret admiration for those involved. Just rejection.

No personal offence to anyone. I just felt I had to say that.

flushd wrote-



I usually stay away from things I don't like the tone of but that isn't saying much.Whatever people do is interesting to me because they are people.I don't care for using them as mirrors.You don't learn much that way.

If you knew anything about marketing you would know that a large number of expert people do make judgements about "Western women".In fact they spend the whole of their professional life doing just that and they are dead in the water if they don't.Are you trying to say that the style of advertising on TV or on hoardings and the style of movies and magazines and books and newspapers etc has been determined by any other consideration than a judgement on the people who are the target-and that is mainly women.
Those "dead broads" were women you know.You sure have made objects out of them with that phrase.They were flesh and blood and with the same "equipment" modern woman has.And so were all the women since then,and before for that matter whether you think it vulgar or not which I certainly don't.

Can you explain why vast amounts of money are invested in movie projects which deal with past times.Cleopatra (1963) was still by 1987 the most expensive film ever made however bad it was.And they are still at it today.The literature on classical times is so vast that "vast" doesn't describe it adequately.American words like "Senate","Congress" and "Capitol" and the institutions that go with them are derived from Roman times.As is much else.

When you say-"who the hell has the right" you are taking on much more than little old me.And you're on the lost side.Even our toilet arrangements are the result of making a judgement.You don't think they were made in the Creation do you?I suspect you are taking too many things for granted.Everything you see around you has been engineered out of a judgement.

And niche marketing doesn't just aim at "Western women".It breaks them down into much narrower categories than that.So many in fact that I won't even attempt to cover it here.

I hope you don't think that your choice of the word "vulgar" in respect to primitive women has just happened randomly.And I also hope that you don't think that a marketing man wouldn't know something about you from that usage.He might guess you have a lot of bottles in your bathroom.And do you know anything about the design of bottles.They don't just grow on trees.

And don't worry about causing offence.You couldn't offend me whatever you said.

How can you possibly take social conditioning out?
You would look like something in the zoo if we did that.And maybe that isn't going far enough.

If you have any knowledge of my contributions on A2K you will know that I have said on many occasions that I haven't a clue about women.They are beyond male comprehension.The products that they buy are those which have survived a long series of trial and error combined with inspired guesswork.

I'm afraid to say,once again,that self absorption and philosophy are immiscible.

shewolfnm finished off a very useful and interesting post with-



Not by me.

I don't know what effects are produced on a female porn star's body but I do know what they are on the body of most serious sportsmen and sportswomen.I also know that a female porn star can do it cold whereas a male porn star can't.
To save any misunderstandings I said "can" and not "does".The men definitely "do" or they're out.

A famous French lesbian writer used to attach electrodes to her partner's body in order to satisfy herself that her partner wasn't faking.Which suggests that even an intelligent,observant woman cannot garuantee to tell the difference between faking and the real thing.

You must be quite a handful sw.Does your husband know how lucky he is although I expect he would say "you make your own luck."

I think "Western men" (for lack of a better term) are still in the closet when it comes to the sexuality of women. The whore in the bedroom but the lady on the arm thing.