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Losing in Iraq by Christopher Hitchens

 
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Aug, 2005 02:59 pm
Quote:
why did I type blind as blonde initially?>


Smile Smile
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 02:15 pm
This is only partially on topic, but there are some people here who read and think before they talk, so this may provoke some conversation.



Nuclear realities
William Pfaff
SATURDAY, AUGUST 13, 2005


PARIS The background to the controversy over Iran's nuclear program is an American position on nuclear nonproliferation that is unsustainable in the long term. Much of the international policy community understands that this is so. It is perhaps time that the Washington policy community comes to terms with this reality.

America's determination to stop nuclear proliferation produces perverse results. At a period of mounting instability in the Middle East and U.S. engagement in two wars in Islamic countries, it increases the allure of nuclear weapons to governments that do not have them, and reinforces their perceived value as political assets and as deterrents against foreign attack.

Nuclear proliferation does not itself promote aggression. Take the alarmist scenarios routinely cited by American and Israeli officials. There is no imaginable way by which nuclear aggression by Iran against Israel could have other than catastrophic results for the attacker. The same is true for any attack by North Korea on an American base in East Asia, or by India on Pakistan, or Pakistan on India.

The existing nuclear states, on the other hand, could attack a non-nuclear nation and escape military retaliation, although not huge political and moral opprobrium. Since everyone sees this, it adds to the perceived injustice of the American position defending the nuclear monopoly of these states.

John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago, an eminent member of the "realist" school of policy analysis, notes that everyone understands that the implicit aim of U.S. nonproliferation policy is to prevent limits being placed on America's freedom of action in dealing with other countries. He writes, "The country that acquires nuclear weapons becomes unattackable. It is precisely for that reason that it wants them."

The usual antiproliferation argument contends - to quote a recent French analysis - that "a world in which 20 or 30 states have the bomb would be uncontrollable." Usually added to the argument is the proposition that some weapons might fall into the hands of terrorists. Indeed they might, but is this any more likely than now, when much former Soviet nuclear material is still unsecured?

The aim of the governments that want to acquire nuclear weapons is security. This implies more stability, not less. The leading American academic authority on proliferation, Kenneth Waltz of Columbia University, makes the argument for proliferation by saying that since the only real utility of nuclear weapons is dissuasion, proliferation logically should "contribute to stability, peace and prudence." This again is a rational argument made by a political realist.

The American position is politically unsustainable in the long term (and morally unsustainable as well, to the extent that the moral case carries weight) because it comes down to an implied claim that the United States should have permanent nuclear superiority, as demanded in the administration's 2001 national strategy statement. This is because it claims responsibility for maintaining global security.

As Zbigniew Brzezinski, who served as Jimmy Carter's national security adviser, argued last year, "American power is uniquely central to world peace." Hence the United States has "the right to seek more security than other countries." It can be trusted to use nuclear weapons responsibly. The same is true for its ally, Britain, which has nuclear weapons because it originated what became the Manhattan Project.

Washington would undoubtedly concede that the current existence of six other nuclear powers - France, Russia, China, Israel, India and Pakistan - is probably irreversible (although undesirable). But to the rest of the world, the United States is saying that the nuclear club now is closed. This is not likely to prove true.

In the nonproliferation treaty signed in 1970, to which 188 states formally adhere, the existing nuclear weapons states, led by the United States, also committed themselves to eventual nuclear disarmament, and that is not happening.

This, plus the senior nuclear states' admittance of India and Pakistan to the club, is a source of tension with such major states as Japan and South Korea, and with many of the nonaligned countries.

A situation has been created in which eight countries - nine, if North Korea actually should have a nuclear weapon, however undeliverable - are conceded power to destroy another country. None gives sign of respecting the nuclear treaty members' obligation to disarm. (Israel, India and Pakistan never ratified the treaty.)

The nonproliferation treaty is in the process of collapsing under the pressures of conflicting geopolitical interests, the power of nationalism and fear in the states that consider themselves discriminated against, the unilateralist ambitions of the United States, and the bad faith of too many of the governments involved. To admit this could be a step toward realism.






Copyright © 2005 The International Herald Tribune | www.iht.com
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 02:46 pm
rayban1 wrote:
Kara wrote:
I think we must attack and defend ourselves against groups with deadly intentions, even if we must lose a few civil liberties by trying to anticipate and stop such attacks.


Thank you for stating your belief on this point......I would not feel so frustrated if more on this forum would make the same admission. I didn't really believe you to be naive and it is obvious that you are making a sincere effort to understand the very complex forces at work in our effort to conquer the worldwide menace of Islamic Fascism (I don't like using that pretentious term but it seems to be the most concise definition of the enemy)

You yourself stated earlier that the enemy was world wide and we would fight it forever. You further state that we have created a haven for this enemy in Iraq. It has been established by all the investigations of our intelligence failure, that we had NO actionable human intelligence in Iraq before we attacked. How then could we have been certain that bin Laden and Saddam would NEVER unite against us as the common enemy, which would in turn allow al Queda to re-establish their training camps from Afghanistan to Iraq? We could not allow that to happen after expending so much time, energy, money and loss of life in our victory in Afghanistan.
It has been established by the 9/11 commission that there was some contact between al Queda and Iraq prior to 9/11 and there are many here who will scoff at any thought of Saddam making a deal with binLaden because of a supposed division in ideology. It is only a small step for two supposed enemies to unite against a much larger and more powerful COMMON enemy. I only want you to think about the possibilities here and to not form any firm decisions here about our motives or our perceived requirements for bases or objectives in this part of the world.

You are rightly concerned about the lives of Iraqis in the current situation. Many have died and many more will die but you seem to have forgotten that many were dying under Saddam. The only difference is......which group was doing most of the dying. Under Saddam they were mostly Shiites and some Kurds where as now the Sunnis are also feeling the pain.
The point I'm trying to make is that we have not suddenly caused all the dying but many here want you to believe we are responsible. That sort of thinking is just flat wrong and unjustified

Let me use a simple analogy to make my next point: When fishermen want to have the best chance of catching a lot of fish, they try to find schools of any particular food fish since at certain times of the year, every type of fish that we use for food, congregate in schools. Trying to find al Queda is similar to trying to find fish in the ocean. Now in Iraq, which you call a haven for terrorists, the terrorists have gathered in bunches from around the world in their zeal to kill Americans. Many here will again scoff and claim that those fighting us are all homegrown Baathists who would rightly be called insurgents rather than terrorists. If that is true then this guy Zargawi would not be a real threat to us would he? Why then have our guys found identification on dead fighters from all over the world......many are from Chechnia, Yemen, Syria, Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia......in fact from every Muslim country. They have congregated to kill Americans.

Was this the initial strategy when we were planning the war?.......it makes sense to me. It may be the reason we did not send more troops to seal the borders. If we seal the borders, how do the fish come in to congregate? There will be more scoffing at this type of thinking. But the scoffers can't have it both ways. Many have called Rumsfeld stupid for not sending more troops to seal the borders. If all the fighters are homegrown, why seal the borders? Where as, if the fighters of al Queda congregate, why not kill them there instead of hunting them down one by one as if in the ocean?

You seem to justify some of your thinking by making it sound evil on our part to want bases in Iraq. Why not get something for all the treasure in money and loss of life we have expended. It is obvious to any amateur strategist that we need land bases in the ME because it is in our long term interests.......is that evil? If you think this way, you are buying into all the various unjustified criticisms of the Bush haters and conspiracy theorists.
It is a simple fact....we need bases in Iraq and we should keep them because the cost has been high in blood.

It has been pointed out on other threads that INSTABILITY has caused the price of gasoline to sky rocket. If we pull out of Iraq......INSTABILITY will reign forever. If we stay, we have a chance to bring stability to the entire region....eventually. I would venture a guess of three more years.....IF....we stay the course.

Bush was actually criticized during the hearings of the 9/11 commission for NOT invading Afghanistan....prior to the attack on 9/11. Just think about that for a second. The fact is......the American people, the American press, and the American left wing would never have accepted that action without the catastrophe and the horror of the World trade centers imploding. Those same people would never have accepted going to war with Japan had it not been for Pearl Harbor.

Invading Afghanistan prior to 9/11 would have amounted to pre-emptive war.......oh the horrors of pre-emptive war. On the other hand, now that 9/11 has become a reality, everyone is applauding the invasion of Afghanistan but now have switched to condemning Bush for Iraq because they were not smacked in the face with another attack somewhere else in America by.....perhaps al Queda using Bio/Chemicals supplied by Saddam.

The Bombings in London and Spain prove that the ordinarily peaceful citizens of the world must be....SMACKED IN THE FACE.....by a horrific attack before they will confront reality. In London now they are deporting preachers of hate and they are taking control of their destiny instead of waiting for the next attack.

I rest my case for now.


Kara

I'm more than a little surprised that you would not be courteous enough to answer the above response that I addressed to you before you attempt to go off topic. Yours is a good article and worthy of it's own thread----so why don't you start one?
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 03:14 pm
Quote:
How then could we have been certain that bin Laden and Saddam would NEVER unite against us as the common enemy, which would in turn allow al Queda to re-establish their training camps from Afghanistan to Iraq?


Rayban, I should have answered earlier. I was not ignoring you but I must admit that I felt ican-ized after reading your post and needed some time and space. I find myself staying with threads where posters do not rush to answer.

In answer to the above, all I can say is that a country could not ever anticipate all threats from every direction, and I don't think it could have been thought that Saddam and bin Laden, who were antagonistic toward each other, would become a joined threat.

Quote:
Many have died and many more will die but you seem to have forgotten that many were dying under Saddam


This is an argument I have heard over and over. If many die, why should be look at who is dying and why? Yes, many died under Saddam. But many were dying all over the world at that time. We chose to use the deaths under Saddam as an excuse to go to war. We were going to free the Iraqi people and give them a better life. Why didn't we go in with the CIA and take out Saddam and a bunch of his henchmen rather than destroying a country that we didn't know how to put back together again?

Quote:
Was this the initial strategy when we were planning the war?.......it makes sense to me. It may be the reason we did not send more troops to seal the borders. If we seal the borders, how do the fish come in to congregate? There will be more scoffing at this type of thinking. But the scoffers can't have it both ways. Many have called Rumsfeld stupid for not sending more troops to seal the borders. If all the fighters are homegrown, why seal the borders? Where as, if the fighters of al Queda congregate, why not kill them there instead of hunting them down one by one as if in the ocean?


Wow. This is the kind of thinking I just don't get. Let's attack a country, leave the borders open for terrorists to rush in, and then we'll fight an ongoing war in that country until we kill all of the terrorists we've drawn in. Meanwhile, never mind the millions of citizens who live each day in fear of their lives.

Quote:
You seem to justify some of your thinking by making it sound evil on our part to want bases in Iraq. Why not get something for all the treasure in money and loss of life we have expended


Rayban, we would not have to get something for our treasure if we hadn't started this war in the first place. The US is not God, we are not virtue personified, we do not know all there is to know. Are we a country that has only its own security and self-preservation to consider, thinking not at all of the rest of the world and its survival? If that is so, then you will find, or perhaps not find, the article I patched in from the IHT relevant to your consideration.
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 03:50 pm
Kara wrote:
In answer to the above, all I can say is that a country could not ever anticipate all threats from every direction, and I don't think it could have been thought that Saddam and bin Laden, who were antagonistic toward each other, would become a joined threat.


I can understand this answer as being from someone who doesn't get paid to think tactically or strategically.......you have the luxury of ignoring factors that would impact a real war situation.

Kara wrote:
This is an argument I have heard over and over. If many die, why should be look at who is dying and why? Yes, many died under Saddam. But many were dying all over the world at that time. We chose to use the deaths under Saddam as an excuse to go to war. We were going to free the Iraqi people and give them a better life. Why didn't we go in with the CIA and take out Saddam and a bunch of his henchmen rather than destroying a country that we didn't know how to put back together again?


Since you ignored the point that I made with this argument I will ignore the emotion and self righteous compassion that only a woman can use when reason and logic are called for.

Kara wrote:
Wow. This is the kind of thinking I just don't get. Let's attack a country, leave the borders open for terrorists to rush in, and then we'll fight an ongoing war in that country until we kill all of the terrorists we've drawn in. Meanwhile, never mind the millions of citizens who live each day in fear of their lives.


I sometimes like to visualize unconventional scenarios which could fit the circumstances so I can't fault you for not understanding.

Kara wrote:

Rayban, we would not have to get something for our treasure if we hadn't started this war in the first place. The US is not God, we are not virtue personified, we do not know all there is to know. Are we a country that has only its own security and self-preservation to consider, thinking not at all of the rest of the world and its survival? If that is so, then you will find, or perhaps not find, the article I patched in from the IHT relevant to your consideration.


Please excuse the haste with which I reply but I cannot wait to be finished with a discussion filled with emotion but utterly devoid of reason and logic.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 01:44 am
Plenty of reason and logic in the anti-war position- in fact, all of it IMO.
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 06:24 am
McTag wrote:
Plenty of reason and logic in the anti-war position- in fact, all of it IMO.


That would be the position of one who crawls back into a rabbit hole and cheers on someone else to fight the battles.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 07:54 am
Quote:
U.S. Lowers Sights On What Can Be Achieved in Iraq
Administration Is Shedding 'Unreality' That Dominated Invasion, Official Says

By Robin Wright and Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, August 14, 2005; A01



The Bush administration is significantly lowering expectations of what can be achieved in Iraq, recognizing that the United States will have to settle for far less progress than originally envisioned during the transition due to end in four months, according to U.S. officials in Washington and Baghdad.

The United States no longer expects to see a model new democracy, a self-supporting oil industry or a society in which the majority of people are free from serious security or economic challenges, U.S. officials say.

"What we expected to achieve was never realistic given the timetable or what unfolded on the ground," said a senior official involved in policy since the 2003 invasion. "We are in a process of absorbing the factors of the situation we're in and shedding the unreality that dominated at the beginning."

Read the Rest Here



All of the arguments for going to war are now debunked.

As for Raybans statement earlier regarding people dying under Saddam... We're all dying. Every day is one day closer to death for all of us. Either he can kill them or we can? Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 09:23 am
Quote:
U.S. Lowers Sights On What Can Be Achieved in Iraq
Administration Is Shedding 'Unreality' That Dominated Invasion, Official Says

By Robin Wright and Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, August 14, 2005; A01

The Bush administration is significantly lowering expectations of what can be achieved in Iraq, recognizing that the United States will have to settle for far less progress than originally envisioned during the transition due to end in four months, according to U.S. officials in Washington and Baghdad.


It is certainly safe to say the that our expectations were too high but it is also safe to say that those expectations were partially or fully created by Chalabi, who supposedly had really good contacts in country. Chalabi has since been discredited and was probably always on the payroll of IRAN.

This carefully nuanced political piece was supposedly written by ELLEN Knickmeyer from Baghdad.........but her first name was deleted at the bottom of the article. Do you really think she was out getting actual information from the Locals? I think it is far more likely she was safely ensconced in the Green Zone, drinking coffee with low ranking "officials" who have changed 3 or 4 times since the start of the war. You will notice that she didn't mention the names of any of the "OFFICIALS" except the one who is back in Washington.

Just another agenda driven account designed to create more doubt in the minds of those who support our efforts in Iraq

No one including GOD would ever be silly enough to think that a Muslim country could ever have a gov't any more democratic than say ....Turkey.....which is also a Muslim country but whose elected officials would never go against Muslim traditions. It is just nonsense to say that this administration ever thought otherwise, but that does not diminish the good intentions of creating an environment for the citizens to elect their own officials instead of reverting back to a Stalinistic type of dictatorship.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 10:55 am
rayban1 wrote:
McTag wrote:
Plenty of reason and logic in the anti-war position- in fact, all of it IMO.


That would be the position of one who crawls back into a rabbit hole and cheers on someone else to fight the battles.


Hey, there's no battles and no wars going on at the moment. I know, lets bomb over there and invade an innocent country!
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 02:23 pm
Quote:
I can understand this answer as being from someone who doesn't get paid to think tactically or strategically.......you have the luxury of ignoring factors that would impact a real war situation.


So you are are a major strategist with the government, being paid to be a man-warrier-person, and you are posting here in A2K?

Quote:
Since you ignored the point that I made with this argument I will ignore the emotion and self righteous compassion that only a woman can use when reason and logic are called for
.

I have been put down by better men than you. And they thought they were smarter than any woman until I thought rings around them.

Rayban, if you have to cite feminine logic to put my arguments down -- rather than using rhetoric -- I will not reply. I will argue all night with someone who does not refer to feminine or masculine thought but talks about argument instead.

Quote:
Please excuse the haste with which I reply but I cannot wait to be finished with a discussion filled with emotion but utterly devoid of reason and logic.


I can understand that you would not want to talk to someone whom you pigeonhole and characterize as a woman, with all of the attending stereotypes.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 02:32 pm
Squinney, hello neighbor

Smile
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 02:42 pm
Kara wrote:
Quote:
I can understand this answer as being from someone who doesn't get paid to think tactically or strategically.......you have the luxury of ignoring factors that would impact a real war situation.


So you are are a major strategist with the government, being paid to be a man-warrier-person, and you are posting here in A2K?

Quote:
Since you ignored the point that I made with this argument I will ignore the emotion and self righteous compassion that only a woman can use when reason and logic are called for
.

I have been put down by better men than you. And they thought they were smarter than any woman until I thought rings around them.

Rayban, if you have to cite feminine logic to put my arguments down -- rather than using rhetoric -- I will not reply. I will argue all night with someone who does not refer to feminine or masculine thought but talks about argument instead.

Quote:
Please excuse the haste with which I reply but I cannot wait to be finished with a discussion filled with emotion but utterly devoid of reason and logic.


I can understand that you would not want to talk to someone whom you pigeonhole and characterize as a woman, with all of the attending stereotypes.


Far be it from me to "pigeon hole" all women in that category.......Maggie Thatcher has my deepest and most profound respect.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 03:12 pm
Kara wrote:
Squinney, hello neighbor

Smile


(waving from Raleigh)

You within distance of a glass of tea?
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 03:17 pm
Jeez, that sounds good, Squinney.

I'm outa the country, back mid-week.

I'd love to have a cuppa with you sometime.

Deal?
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 03:53 pm
I'll PM you our number when you get back. Bear /BVT and I would love that.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Aug, 2005 10:39 pm
'kay. Look forward to it.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 03:42 am
rayban every time you get personal - and you do it a lot - you fail to convince.
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 08:18 am
goodfielder wrote:
rayban every time you get personal - and you do it a lot - you fail to convince.


Yeah......you are 100% correct GF but I'm only human and when you consider all the PERSONAL ABUSE ......that I must contend with......

I do recognize that fault though and I'm working on it.......thanks for the reminder :wink:

You might try reminding a few others of the same fault Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2005 07:30 pm
rayban1 wrote:
goodfielder wrote:
rayban every time you get personal - and you do it a lot - you fail to convince.


Yeah......you are 100% correct GF but I'm only human and when you consider all the PERSONAL ABUSE ......that I must contend with......

I do recognize that fault though and I'm working on it.......thanks for the reminder :wink:

You might try reminding a few others of the same fault Twisted Evil


And I'll look in the mirror while I'm doing it.

No you're not the only one.

Yes I am guilty of it too so I will put my hand up for the hyprocrite award.

And yes I am cheeky for even bringing it up.
0 Replies
 
 

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