Pronoun Usage

Re: Pronoun Usage

Owennu3 wrote:

Which is more correct?

"The facilitator asks the group to share their experiences with one another."

"The facilitator asks the group to share its experience with one another."

And why?

Grammatically speaking, the second is correct because the singular pronoun its matches the singular noun group. However, there is nothing that requires experience to be singular. If it is, it suggests that the experience is, in some way, common to the group which would make sharing it amongst the members seem somewhat pointless. If we were talking about a common experience, I could see the singular used in the following, for example:

"The facilitator asks the group to share its experience with the audience."

In your second sentence, I would be more likely to write:

"The facilitator asks the group to share its experiences with one another."

or

"The facilitator asks the group members to share their experiences with one another."

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True, in America. But in England, "collective" nouns are considered to be plural: the department were all going; the team have been given uniforms... it sounds strange to US ears.

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Yes, it do.

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It do indeed. My Irish wife says, "the band were rocking."

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Though, one of the few collective nouns we happily consider plural is people (never mind persons). Any others, besides that one and y'all?

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Youse as in "youse guys" or

"youse'll have to excuse my friend, he's a moron."

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Re: Pronoun Usage

Owennu3 wrote:

Which is more correct?

"The facilitator asks the group to share their experiences with one another."

"The facilitator asks the group to share its experience with one another."

And why?

Both are correct. Number is important to English but it isn't quite as simple, nor as clear cut as prescriptive grammars would have it.

Here, it is simply a matter of singular versus notional plurality. It's easily conceivable that the speaker could have in mind, but be ellipting "the people in the group".

We use language to express the clearest meaning. Each sentence, in a given situation, could have a different meaning.

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Re: Pronoun Usage

Owennu3 wrote:

Which is more correct?

"The facilitator asks the group to share their experiences with one another."

"The facilitator asks the group to share its experience with one another."

And why?

Dear Owennu3,

It is a most interesting question. If we have «one another», we have at least two parties. It is therefore not possible to say «share its experience».

Warm regards, Smile

Goldmund

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Re: Pronoun Usage

Goldmund wrote:

Owennu3 wrote:
Which is more correct?

"The facilitator asks the group to share their experiences with one another."

"The facilitator asks the group to share its experience with one another."

And why?

Dear Owennu3,

It is a most interesting question. If we have «one another», we have at least two parties. It is therefore not possible to say «share its experience».

Warm regards,

Goldmund

I can't see why it's impossible, Mr Goldmund. The group had a group experience and the facilitator asks this group to recount the experience with each other.

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Re: Pronoun Usage

JTT wrote:

Owennu3 wrote:
We use language to express the clearest meaning. Each sentence, in a given situation, could have a different meaning.

JTT, I would say that this is why one choice might be better than another at some point. Prescriptive grammar is not concerned with following rules for the sake of following rules but for making things clearer where confusion may arise. Descriptive grammar seems to have no concern for confusion; it will (it must imagine) eventually work itself out.

I give Owennu3 great credit for asking which of two choices is more correct as opposed to asking which is wrong and which is right. Clearly, he or she was aware that either would be largely understood, but often this understanding comes from presumptions of familiarity with a particular concept or way of thinking. These presumptions often become the basis for laxity of structure. We all know that when someone says, "I could care less about such and such," that they mean they couldn't care less, but when they become synonymous, we've effectively made it impossible to be understood literally when we really could care less (not that it's a particularly meaningful thing to say).

This may be pure semantics, but if a group experience is considered singularly, I would say that it is considered the same by all in the group and "sharing" would be pointless. If experience is influenced by perspective then each experience would be unique and sharing would be meaningful. It would seem then that the only point of considering a group experience to be singular would be to emphasize its uniformity.

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Quote:

True, in America. But in England, "collective" nouns are considered to be plural: the department were all going; the team have been given uniforms... it sounds strange to US ears.

Not quite true, Wy. I am English and our usage isn't as straightforward as that. Over here a collective noun takes a singular or plural verb according to the sense - i.e. whether it is acting, or being considered, as a single entity or a collection of individuals. In your example, the department were all going, the inclusion of the word all characterises the department as a group of individuals, implying the possibility that in other circumstances some of them might not have gone; indeed you could consider that the department is actually an ellipsis for all the members of the department. Whereas in the sentence "the department was being relocated to Swindon" the department is clearly a single entity and takes a singular verb.

In Owennu's original question, the group members are being called upon to speak to each other, so even if they collectively experienced the event they are being asked to talk about, each will be talking about his/her/their [oh damn, gendered pronoun problem] own experience of it. So I would say "share their experiences" is logical and correct.

As Valpower says, "The facilitator asks the group to share its experience with the audience" would make sense because here the group is being called on to act collectively.

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Re: Pronoun Usage

JTT wrote:

Goldmund wrote:
Owennu3 wrote:
Which is more correct?

"The facilitator asks the group to share their experiences with one another."

"The facilitator asks the group to share its experience with one another."

And why?

Dear Owennu3,

It is a most interesting question. If we have «one another», we have at least two parties. It is therefore not possible to say «share its experience».

Warm regards,

Goldmund

I can't see why it's impossible, Mr Goldmund. The group had a group experience and the facilitator asks this group to recount the experience with each other.

Dear JTT,

Syntinen has expressed my opinion admirably. Where we say «its», we imply one entity. Where we say «each other», we imply at least two entities. Where we say «share», we also imply at least two entities.

A person does not «share his experiences» with himself. Smile

Kind regards, Smile

Goldmund

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Re: Pronoun Usage
{

Owennu3 wrote:

} QUOTE - JTT: We use language to express the clearest meaning. Each sentence, in a given situation, could have a different meaning.

JTT, I would say that this is why one choice might be better than another at some point.

JTT: We agree, Vp. I don't recall that I said one was "better" than another". Did I?

[You seem to have the quotes, above, mixed up, Vp.]

=======================

Prescriptive grammar is not concerned with following rules for the sake of following rules but for making things clearer where confusion may arise. Descriptive grammar seems to have no concern for confusion; it will (it must imagine) eventually work itself out.

JTT: That is precisely what prescriptive grammar is concerned with, Vp. The history of prescriptive grammar has been " following rules for the sake of following rules". Prescription after prescription falls when critical thinking is applied to them.

From this above, I respectfully suggest that you're not quite clear on what descriptive grammar is.

=======================

I give Owennu3 great credit for asking which of two choices is more correct as opposed to asking which is wrong and which is right. Clearly, he or she was aware that either would be largely understood, but often this understanding comes from presumptions of familiarity with a particular concept or way of thinking.

JTT: That's very true, Vp; such is the nature of language. We acquire meaning from how structures are used, not by what some wag says about how a given structure should be used.

==========================

These presumptions often become the basis for laxity of structure. We all know that when someone says, "I could care less about such and such," that they mean they couldn't care less, but when they become synonymous, we've effectively made it impossible to be understood literally when we really could care less (not that it's a particularly meaningful thing to say).

JTT: There is no laxity of structure involved here, Vp, just as there is no laxity of structure in the 'could/couldn't care less' structures. With respect you're simply mistaken.

Both can be used for a SIMILAR situation but that doesn't mean that they are synonymous, nor does it mean that either one loses any appreciable ability to create a nuance within a different given language situation.

======================================

This may be pure semantics, but if a group experience is considered singularly, I would say that it is considered the same by all in the group and "sharing" would be pointless.

JTT: First, you're making a subjective decision about this that has nothing to do with what language does. Language can be used to talk about anything from the completely inane, [in fact, mentally ill people use perfectly grammatical language to speak incomprehensibly] to the loftiest of speech.

In point of fact, this type of "sharing" is done all the time in seminars. Language is what allows people to offer their differing perspectives of a common experience. Using <its> could mean that the group had a common view and the facilitator just wanted them to go over it again with each other.

======================

If experience is influenced by perspective then each experience would be unique and sharing would be meaningful. It would seem then that the only point of considering a group experience to be singular would be to emphasize its uniformity.

JTT: Have you not just pointed out one possibility that points to, not only its grammaticality, but its semantic needfulness?

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Re: Pronoun Usage
Dear JTT,

Syntinen has expressed my opinion admirably. Where we say «its», we imply one entity.

JTT: That's true, Goldmund, the group experience is one entity, viewed as a collective experience.

================

Where we say «each other», we imply at least two entities. Where we say «share», we also imply at least two entities.

JTT: Also true. The single group experience is discussed by the participants who had the single experience.

Syntinen stated:
As Valpower says, "The facilitator asks the group to share its experience with the audience" would make sense because here the group is being called on to act collectively.
================================

A person does not «share his experiences» with himself. Smile

JTT: It's certainly a language possibility because it's a life possibility, Goldmund. What is possible in life, hell, even that which is not possible can be described by language.

So, the long and the short of it is, both are possible depending upon the view of the speaker.

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Dear Chai Tea,

If I may say so, your picture is most attractive. Smile

It is however a little small. Nor is my eyesight good. It is perhaps Rita Hayworth?

In my youth, I have been a great admirer of Rita Hayworth.

Kind regards, Smile

Goldmund

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Wy wrote:

... it sounds strange to US ears.

Dear sirs,

May I ask those of you who are native to America and Canada: it is very strange to your ears, the plural locution?

Best wishes, Smile

Goldmund

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