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Sat 21 May, 2022 04:03 am
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matthew 23:31-33
Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
1 Chronicles 16:22
Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
Psalm 105:15
And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
John 11:49-53
@Theo202,
Do you have a point? Or are you just posting scripture on a message board to earn brownie points in Sunday school?
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Romans 3:7
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luke 24:44-47
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isaiah 53:8
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Zechariah 13:6
@Theo202,
Quote:Yes, I have a point.
No you don't. Posting unoriginal tidbits of literary fiction devoid of historical context proves that. But continue to spam the site with scripture and your Sunday school teacher might give you a gold star.
@hightor,
The point is that the Christian doctrine of savlation originated from people who were condemned as "vipers". Saying that it's fiction without any supporting facts or argument only shows your prejudice.
@Theo202,
Not accepting the value of fiction in shaping people's worldview only shows your bias and lack of imagination.
You've taken a few selected comments and attempted to make them universal. You've provided no proof that anyone other than than the individuals who compiled and edited these texts ever made the claim that "the Christian doctrine of savlation originated from people who were condemned as 'vipers'."
@hightor,
Quote:Not accepting the value of fiction in shaping people's worldview only shows your bias and lack of imagination.
Wrong, contradictory religions shape people's worldview.
Quote:You've taken a few selected comments and attempted to make them universal.
Wrong again, that was Paul's trick, not mine. Your estimation of what constitutes proof is of no value here.
From another thread:
Quote:No. Actually, the Jews had an uncomfortable situation on their hands. The earlier leaders confirmed Isauah 53. But they'd just seen not only a man be pierced but enter through the East Gate, and his clothes were divided by lot. This is awfully specific, yet Ezekiel and Isaiah, and the writers of Psalms said as much would happen.
The original Hebrew text had this here. The Masoretic text, 1000 years later, did not. Not only that, it was different text, with vowels added. Imagine a written language with no vowels, that was put together largely by oral tradition. Then suddenly they add vowels. Are we to trust that they followed God and added the rivht ones, when we aren't even sure they did the right thing by rejecting Jesus? But sure, it was the Christian ppl who changed all these texts.
"Like a lion, my hands and feet."
" They have pierced my hands and feet. "
Be real with me. Which one looks like the real text? I can tell you right now, it's the second. Wounded for our transgressions? That isn't prophetic support?
There is no reason for the priests to change the text to add the pierced part. They were actively opposed to Jesus, and would never make the text fit that. But there were plenty of reasons for them to change the text away from that
No, the didn't see the spear. Someone getting impaled by by a spear is a memorable event, and can't be explained away by the witnesses being too far away. Only in the gospel of John will you find anything about it, any only in John an association is made between the spear and prophecy.
Wounded for out trangressions isn't the same as being tortured to death so that the law no longer applies.
You've already been told what the reason is - if you disagree then it's up to you so show alternative prophetic support for the Christian doctrine.
@Theo202,
Quote:Wrong, contradictory religions shape people's worldview.
Contradictory fictions have the same effect.
Quote:Your estimation of what constitutes proof is of no value here.
Non sequitur
@hightor,
Wrong, it's a denial. You've got nothing of value to bring to the table.
@Theo202,
Quote:You've got nothing of value to bring to the table
That's rich, coming from you! Do you really consider this observation something of value:
"The Christian doctrine of salvation originated from people who were condemned as 'vipers'."
As I pointed out, your scriptural sources don't establish this as an empirical fact. What you are doing is just trying to establish textual confirmation, looking into a massive work of fiction and gleaning bits and pieces which support your contentions.
What you haven't done is explain why any of it matters. And the only thing you've established is that someone, when compiling these writings, included a few instances where people were condemned as "vipers". So what?
@hightor,
Quote:As I pointed out, your scriptural sources don't establish this as an empirical fact.
So what? The best explanation for the facts are that the textual sources are relevant historical accounts.
Quote:What you are doing is just trying to establish textual confirmation
You have no idea what I'm trying to do.
Quote:And the only thing you've established is that someone, when compiling these writings, included a few instances where people were condemned as "vipers"
You're leaving out main point about Christian doctrine of salvation.
Your misrepresentation of the issue only serves to highlight its significance.
@Theo202,
Quote:The best explanation for the facts are that the textual sources are relevant historical accounts.
Which you haven't provided.
Quote:You have no idea what I'm trying to do.
Apparently you don't either.
Quote:
You're leaving out main point about Christian doctrine of salvation.
You didn't include it.
Quote:
Your misrepresentation of the issue only serves to highlight its significance.
No, it serves to highlight its obscurity.
@hightor,
Quote:Which you haven't provided.
Except for the ones that you ignored, of course.
Matthew 23:31-33
1 Chronicles 16:22
Psalm 105:15
John 11:49-53
https://able2know.org/topic/570036-1#post-7229889
"Deny everything" isn't going to work for you, it's obvious that the vipers spoken about in Matthew are a reference to murderous priests like those described in John.
That's theology for you, God told the animals to go go forth and multiply, but the vipers couldn't do that because they're adders.
Thank you I'm here all week.
@Theo202,
Quote:...it's obvious that the vipers spoken about in Matthew are a reference to murderous priests like those described in John.
No it isn't. And by providing references to the Old Testament, you're merely showing how later authors consciously edited stories about Jesus to reflect O.T. "prophesies". You're revealing the sources of this later plagiarism. The same sources, by the way, which christians have historically used to defend immoral behavior by preachers.
@hightor,
It's obviously about murderous priests because the priests were called vipers in reference to the killing of the prophets, and the same priests planned to kill the Messiah.
Quote:And by providing references to the Old Testament, you're merely showing how later authors consciously edited stories about Jesus to reflect O.T. "prophesies".
Non sequitur. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
@Theo202,
Quote:You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
You are clearly fooling yourself. The story of Jesus was supplemented by connecting it to the O.T. prophecies for the sake of legitimacy. When the real ministry of Jesus lacked the necessary components to fulfill the prophecy the writers simply made up incidents which completed the connection. That's what happens when you substitute myths and legends for empirical knowledge or verifiable historical facts .
Adders are our only poisonous snake, they're not usually poisonous enough to kill anyone but a small child.
Their poison is for what they hunt, rats voles and the like, it does the job with them.
A mate of mine disturbed a hibernating adder when clearing some hedgerows.
When he went to hospital they didn't believe him because it was the wrong time of year for adders, told him to **** off.
He decided to ride it out with a load of heroin, which might have been why they thought he was talking **** in the first place.
He lived.
For all I know pharmaceutical opiates are used to treat adder bites which would mean his story is a load of old bollocks, he was a ******* junky after all.
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