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PM Blair stereotyping? or are his actions justfied?

 
 
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2005 08:15 am
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PM Blair stereotyping? or are his actions justfied?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 693 • Replies: 12
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2005 09:08 am
Blair is being perfectly reasonable.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Aug, 2005 03:50 pm
Re: PM Blair stereotyping? or are his actions justfied?
rhythm.synergy wrote:
PM Blair stereotyping? or are his actions justfied?


Stereotyping? Technically, I suppose he is. He is stereotyping extremist hate mongers that encourage violence as "bad". I don't see any problem with that.
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golog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2005 08:19 pm
I was hoping I could get some help with this question. To paraphrase Blair,

Quote:
During the decades of IRA attacks, did the British establish, with the Catholic community, a commission to advise on how, consistent with people's complete freedom to worship in the way they want, and to follow their own religion and culture, to better integrate those parts of the community presently inadequately integrated?
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2005 08:24 pm
golog wrote:
I was hoping I could get some help with this question. To paraphrase Blair,

Quote:
During the decades of IRA attacks, did the British establish, with the Catholic community, a commission to advise on how, consistent with people's complete freedom to worship in the way they want, and to follow their own religion and culture, to better integrate those parts of the community presently inadequately integrated?


Probably not. Perhaps because the violence perpetrated by the IRA wasn't primarily motivated by religion.
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golog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2005 09:01 pm
Thanks for answering.

I didn't know that the problem with the Muslims was primarily religious.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Aug, 2005 08:15 am
bm
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Aug, 2005 08:56 am
Is it being suggested that Blair proposes deporting all Muslims?

Now, that thought never occured to me till I read the phrasing of a couple of questions on the proposal.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Aug, 2005 09:28 am
Blair is doing what he should do to protect the Citizens of Briton. The US should follow suite.
If guests in your house spoke and agitated against you would you not throw them out??
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Aug, 2005 11:01 am
BBB
bm
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 05:55 am
golog wrote:
Thanks for answering.

I didn't know that the problem with the Muslims was primarily religious.


You only have to do some reading to find that out. We're not talking about religion as an accessory to life here, it's full-blown take it or leave it (leaving it meaning you get to expire).
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 10:18 am
Op-Ed Contributor
Why Tolerate the Hate?





Quote:
By IRSHAD MANJI
Published: August 9, 2005
Toronto

FOR a European leader, Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain has done something daring. He has given notice not just to the theocrats of Islam, but also to the theocracy of tolerance.
"Staying here carries with it a duty," Mr. Blair said in referring to foreign-born Muslim clerics who glorify terror on British soil. "That duty is to share and support the values that sustain the British way of life. Those who break that duty and try to incite hatred or engage in violence against our country and its people have no place here."

With that, his government proposed new laws to deport extremist religious leaders, to shut down the mosques that house them and to ban groups with a history of supporting terrorism. The reaction was swift: a prominent human rights advocate described Mr. Blair's measures as "neo-McCarthyite hectoring," warning that they would make the British "less distinguishable from the violent, hateful and unforgiving theocrats, our democracy undermined from within in ways that the suicide bombers could only have dreamed of."

But if these anti-terror measures feel like an overreaction to the London bombings, that's only because Britons, like so many in the West, have been avoiding a vigorous debate about what values are most worth defending in our societies.

As Westerners bow down before multiculturalism, we anesthetize ourselves into believing that anything goes. We see our readiness to accommodate as a strength - even a form of cultural superiority (though few will admit that). Radical Muslims, on the other hand, see our inclusive instincts as a form of corruption that makes us soft and rudderless. They believe the weak deserve to be vanquished.

Paradoxically, then, the more we accommodate to placate, the more their contempt for our "weakness" grows. And ultimate paradox may be that in order to defend our diversity, we'll need to be less tolerant. Or, at the very least, more vigilant. And this vigilance demands more than new antiterror laws. It requires asking: What guiding values can most of us live with? Given the panoply of ideologies and faiths out there, what filter will distill almost everybody's right to free expression?

Neither the watery word "tolerance" nor the slippery phrase "mutual respect" will cut it as a guiding value. Why tolerate violent bigotry? Where's the "mutual" in that version of mutual respect? Amin Maalouf, a French-Arab novelist, nailed this point when he wrote that "traditions deserve respect only insofar as they are respectable - that is, exactly insofar as they themselves respect the fundamental rights of men and women."

Allow me to invoke a real-life example of what can't be tolerated if we're going to maintain freedom of expression for as many people as possible. In 1999, an uproar surrounded the play "Corpus Christi" by Terrence McNally, in which Jesus was depicted as a gay man. Christians protested the show and picketed its European debut in Edinburgh, a reasonable exercise in free expression. But Omar Bakri Muhammad, a Muslim preacher and a judge on the self-appointed Sharia Court of the United Kingdom, went further: he signed a fatwa calling for Mr. McNally to be killed, on the grounds that Jesus is considered a prophet by Muslims. (Compassion overflowed in the clause that stated Mr. McNally "could be buried in a Muslim graveyard" if he repented.) Mr. Bakri then had the fatwa distributed throughout London.

Since then, Mr. Bakri has promoted violent struggle from various London meeting halls. He has even lionized the July 7 bombers as the "fantastic four." He is a counselor of death, and should not have been allowed to remain in Britain. And thanks to Mr. Blair's newfound fortitude, he has reportedly fled England for Lebanon.

The Muslim Council of Britain, a mainstream lobbying group that assailed Mr. Blair's proposed measures, has long claimed that men like Mr. Bakri represent only a slim fraction of the country's nearly two million Muslims. Assuming that's true, British Muslims - indeed, Muslims throughout the West - should rejoice at their departures or deportations, because all forms of Islam that respect the freedom to disbelieve, to go one's own way, will be strengthened.

Which brings me to my vote for a value that could guide Western societies: individuality. When we celebrate individuality, we let people choose who they are, be they members of a religion, free spirits, or something else entirely. I realize that for many Europeans, "individuality" might sound too much like the American ideal of individualism. It doesn't have to. Individualism - "I'm out for myself" - differs from individuality - "I'm myself, and my society benefits from my uniqueness."

Of course, there may be better values than individuality for Muslims and non-Muslims to embrace. Let's have that debate - without fear of being deemed self-haters or racists by those who twist multiculturalism into an orthodoxy. We know the dangers of taking Islam literally. By now we should understand the peril of taking tolerance literally.


Irshad Manji is the author of "The Trouble with Islam Today: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith."
0 Replies
 
rhythm synergy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 10:41 am
au1929 wrote:
Why tolerate violent bigotry? Where's the "mutual" in that version of mutual respect?


I understand where Irshad Manji (person who wrote above) is coming from. But with the unprecedent control of the British police, what strick guidelines do they have to ensure that people wrongly accused are not deported? I understand that Omar Bakri Muhammad was an obviously a "violent bigot."

au1929 wrote:
And ultimate paradox may be that in order to defend our diversity, we'll need to be less tolerant. Or, at the very least, more vigilant.


Reminds me of WWII when they rounded up all Japanese (well here in Canada, not sure abt U.S.). Manji does say later on though that "violent bigotry" is what we shouldn't tolerate

(P.S. nice quote au1929)
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