Middle America's creeping theocracy

real life wrote:

Helpful Hint A: Useful quotations would be those by Founding Fathers that deny their belief in prayer, for instance, since that would be God intervening in the affairs of men. A Deist would probably NOT believe in a God who answers prayer.

You are making an assumption about prayer, rl. Prayer doesn't necessarily imply the belief that God intervenes in the affairs of men. It isn't exclusive to theists. Non-theists such as Buddhists also pray. Your prayer criteria is not necessary.

real life wrote:

Terry's original claim was totally unsupported! Not a shred of evidence was offered.

I doubted the supportability of his claim.

If you think you can "call me on it" and prove the claim (which he didn't) that "many of the Founding Fathers were Deists", then go ahead.

You posted some info about 4 FF, (this is hardly "many") much of which does NOT prove or even hint at Deism.

I gave you a simple three part test to see if the FF's beliefs could qualify as Deism. Can you meet the challenge or no?

My "unsupported claim" was offered in response to this post by BreatheThePoison:

Quote:

Didnt boat fulls of christians colonize america with the intent to create a christian nation, one nation under God? Wasnt this country founded on biblical doctrines? Wasn't the constitution written by a bunch of christians? Werent the laws put in place as a reflection of the comands in the bible.... or am i missing something?

Mesquite and J.B. have offered evidence that many of the founding fathers were indeed deists.

Now, can you or BreatheThePoison substantiate the unsupported claim that "a bunch of Christians" wrote the Constitution, founded this country or based its laws on Biblical doctrines?

BTW. I am a "she" not a "he."

<snipped the first part>

The use of Austrialia as a penal colony was only mooted after the successful revolution removed North America as a destination for convicts.

Mesquite offered evidence to try to suggest that only 5 Founding Fathers were Deists. That is hardly to be construed as "many". Just counting the Signers of the Declaration alone gives 55.

The evidence on his 5 is hardly conclusive and some of it downright harmful to his conclusion.

Mesquite's evidence suggests:

Adams was a Unitarian, not a Deist.

Jefferson had some belief in the Bible and the words of Jesus Christ, although he believed that they had become corrupted.

JB's input actually shows that many of the FF considered Thomas Paine's positions ridiculous, or worse.

We haven't gotten anywhere close to proving that "many" of the Founding Fathers were Deists. (Hint: They weren't.)

real life wrote:

Mesquite offered evidence to try to suggest that only 5 Founding Fathers were Deists. That is hardly to be construed as "many". Just counting the Signers of the Declaration alone gives 55.

The evidence on his 5 is hardly conclusive and some of it downright harmful to his conclusion.

Mesquite's evidence suggests:

Adams was a Unitarian, not a Deist.

Jefferson had some belief in the Bible and the words of Jesus Christ, although he believed that they had become corrupted.

JB's input actually shows that many of the FF considered Thomas Paine's positions ridiculous, or worse.

We haven't gotten anywhere close to proving that "many" of the Founding Fathers were Deists. (Hint: They weren't.)

Quite right. The Unitarians of the 18th century were certainly Christian. Although not trinitarians, they followed the teachings of Jesus, viewed him in a humanist, prophetical role and considered him the 'head' of the Church. It wasn't until the mid twentieth century than many Unitarians dropped their Christian affiliation. Some Unitarians still considered themselves Christian.

Jefferson's modifications to the New Testament removed the references to the Annunciation, miracle birth and Resurrection in order to, "reduce our volume to the simple evangelists, select, even from them, the very words only of Jesus. There will be remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man." - Thomas Jefferson

In a letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept, 1800, in followup to a conversation they had on the topic of the Christian religion, "I have a view of the subject which ought to displease neither the rational Christian nor Deist, and would reconcile many to a character they have too hastily rejected. I do not know that it would reconcile the genus irritable vatum who are all in arms against me. Their hostility is on too interesting ground to be softened." The later referring to a group who considered him an infidel too impious to be President

"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes. They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the alter of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." - Thomas Jefferson letter to B. Rush, from "The Gospel according to Thomas Jefferson", Forrest Church, an Introduction to the Jefferson Bible.

"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes. They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the alter of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." - Thomas Jefferson letter to B. Rush, from "The Gospel according to Thomas Jefferson", Forrest Church, an Introduction to the Jefferson Bible.

Quote:

"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes. They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the alter of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." - Thomas Jefferson letter to B. Rush, from "The Gospel according to Thomas Jefferson", Forrest Church, an Introduction to the Jefferson Bible.

It seems to me we could use another Thomas Jefferson in the White House.