Middle America's creeping theocracy

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Bible Course Becomes a Test for Public Schools in Texas

By RALPH BLUMENTHAL and BARBARA NOVOVITCH
Published: August 1, 2005
HOUSTON, July 31 - When the school board in Odessa, the West Texas oil town, voted unanimously in April to add an elective Bible study course to the 2006 high school curriculum, some parents dropped to their knees in prayerful thanks that God would be returned to the classroom, while others assailed it as an effort to instill religious training in the public schools.

Hundreds of miles away, leaders of the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools notched another victory. A religious advocacy group based in Greensboro, N.C., the council has been pressing a 12-year campaign to get school boards across the country to accept its Bible curriculum.

The council calls its course a nonsectarian historical and literary survey class within constitutional guidelines requiring the separation of church and state.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/01/education/01bible.html?th&emc=th

Middle America's creeping theocracy. Is it unconstitutional?

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I think it's likely to get a great deal worse before it ever gets better.

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I hope that the situation over there will become more like the UK.

You see, over here, religious studies is enforced by the law and because of the country's overall Christian tradition, the majority of these studies must be focused on Christianity.

Have you seen what Church attendance is like in the UK? It's far lower than in the US. Evolution is far more accepted over here. There are far less anti-gay campaigns. Things are much better when the Christian fundamentalists get what they think they want.

I say, let them force Bible studies down student's throats. They think it'll win more people over to the side, but if the UK is anything to judge by, it will do absolutely the opposite.

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In the US the separation of church and state is a basic "freedom." If the schools in Texas choose to break that covenant they should be considered parochial schools and should no longer be entitled to funding from the US government

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I'm just curious as to how an elective course violates the establishment clause of the US Constitution. Nobody is being forced to take the course, it is simply offered for those who would like to take it.

I see no violation of anyone's right not to have a religion forced upon them.

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While I agree that an elective, being optional, doesn't necessarily violate that clause, the absence of courses studying other religious books kind of reeks.

I see nothing wrong with studying religious works, but if it were my child I would want there to be a course that investigated more than one. I wonder how many children will choose to take it.

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The same reasoning can be applied to school prayer. No one is forced to participate. However!!!

The religious right will attempt any ploy they can to fight against Separation of Church and state. As far as they are concerned this is a Christian Nation.

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It is an elective course at the high school my children will attend this Fall. They also have a Religious Studies elective offered that explores different religions and their historical relevance.

Neither of my children have so far elected either course. Daughter took a "Conversations in Diversity" class last year that she said ended up being pretty over-run by A) Christians and B) Conservatives.

Since it is an elective, and other religious studies are also offered, I don't have a problem with it. There are plenty of other electives to balance the curriculum.

Plus, think how far ahead they can be when they get to college Psych 101 and Sociology! They'll immediately understand some of the basic concepts!

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Like paranoia and projection!

Tee hee, yeah, I'm ok with the elective as long as there are several other electives offered as alternatives. Plus, how many sarcastic little atheists will take it just to mess f___ with folks.

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Duck wrote

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Plus, how many sarcastic little atheists will take it just to mess f___ with folks.

How about the Crumbs from the religious right who will try to sell their bullcrap to impressionable children. If you want to spread that junk do it where it belongs in the Christian Madrassas.

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FreeDuck wrote:

While I agree that an elective, being optional, doesn't necessarily violate that clause, the absence of courses studying other religious books kind of reeks.

I see nothing wrong with studying religious works, but if it were my child I would want there to be a course that investigated more than one. I wonder how many children will choose to take it.

I agree that it would be good to offer courses on other religious books. Assuming of course that there is enough demand in a particular school district to offer such courses. As long as any such courses are optional, I don't think they violate any aspect of the constitution.

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au1929 wrote:

Duck wrote

Quote:
Plus, how many sarcastic little atheists will take it just to mess f___ with folks.

How about the Crumbs from the religious right who will try to sell their bullcrap to impressionable children. If you want to spread that junk do it where it belongs in the Christian Madrassas.

Yeah, I don't like it either, but my hunch is that electives don't appear in a curriculum until middle and high school when kids are mostly cynical little shits anyway. And the ones who are impressionable who would take those courses have probably already been indoctrinated.

I do see how there could be a problem if the pattern persists whereby almost all electives could be some sort of Christian bible study effectively making avoidance of them impossible. But that's not happening yet and I hope it doesn't continue down that road.

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http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/4197.html

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/430

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-08-16-unc-reading_x.htm

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/20548

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I think I'm missing something--is it a class promoting Christian theology, or is it a class that explores the Bible as literature and philosophy? If it's promoting, then it's a clear violation of the separation of church and state (it doesn't matter that it's an elective, it's being publicly funded/school sponsored). However, a 'Bible as Lit.' class would be extremely valuable; much of our culture and literary traditions are either rooted in or heavily influenced by the Bible.

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I don't think that classes in the Bible are appropriate at the high school level, even if it is a "Bible as Literature" course. College, yes. High school kids are very impressionable, and the school district would have to be very careful that the instructor teaching the course does not have a religious agenda. Personally, I think that it would be a mess, and almost impossible to monitor.

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Yeah don't bring even Bible as literature into High School. Too much of a chance for a teacher to turn it into a religious class. Although by high school many kids are already atheistic in many ways.

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In our curriculum booklet it is listed as Bible History and is a Social Studies elective. However, going to the school site and looking under the Social Studies department I get this:

Quote:

"Religions in World Cultures/The Bible in History

Fancy a field trip to a Tibetan Buddhist center? Ever heard the Zen sound of one hand clapping? Ready to unlock the mysteries of Armageddon and the book for Revelation? If you wish to strengthen or re-experience your own faith or to become more tolerant of the hundreds of other faiths, take this course. "

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real life, I see no problem in reading books ABOUT the Qu'ran in COLLEGE just like if they same were true with the Bible. College is diferent than High school.

About text books being biased this is true. They tend to always portray the positive except in the case of established "barbarians" such as the mongols and huns. Very rarely do we hear of the things the terrible things that went on in Christian Europe in the middle ages just as we don't really hear that which went on in Islamic empires. Now if it were the Mongols :rolleyes: we'd know every fuckin detail of torture and murder they used.

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Quote:

If you wish to strengthen or re-experience your own faith

Thats the troubling part of teh description.

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I don't understand what it is about Congress shall make no law respecing an establishment of religion that relgionists find so difficult to understand. In 1948, the Supremes held in McCollum v. Board of Education that because public schools have compulsory education requirements, this plan created a situation where students were forced to participate in religious instruction or risk being ostracized by teachers and peers. The Court found the plan did violate the establishment clause. The present Court might find differently in this case if it is challenged, but in so doing, they will fly in the face of the separation principle in operation in this country for two hundred years.

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Middle America's creeping theocracy

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