Are You Part of the Problem or Part of the Solution?

Valley,

Behind you 100% there. Ok, write something up to present for debate?

I am working on my Right To Die With Dignity Act.

Momma

Whew. I just read/skimmed through this thread. I like the sound of UPN. It sounds nice like a hot bath and fuzzy slippers. I would like to take the oath and be part of the nation.... but

I have to agree with frank on certain levels. This may be treason but eh *shrug*

There is one problem. Lets look at the hitler senerio that frank brought up. So hitler is living in UPN. The law should be amended so that we have the right to defend the defenseless. Here is this crazy German killing people, I cannot respect something wrong, its human nature to hate something we know is bad. I cannot be held accountable for my inner most being hating this demented person who is killing my friends and neighbors and speaking ill against my brothren.

Your nation seems takes away the freedom of a person to be responsible and act with wisdom on this account. If i simply waited to react to this man i would be waiting until he showed up on my door step and dragged me or mine away to a death camp. But if i had the ability to defend those unable then on the first count of murder this man would be out.

Now this whole senerio would be nothing because supposing that there are people to inforce these laws there would be no hitler in the first place, he would be banned from the country.

So then the problem seems to be with respect for others. There is a place where MA's view and dear Franks meet. We should respect the rights of all people to have their opinions, to react how ever they feel they should react within certain guidlines, (no blasting harry har har for cutting in line at the bank, and no animal sex with sandy sally because she was walking around in her nighty) Suppose the devil stood before you, do you respect him and show him honor? Probably not. I reconize his place as the devil, but i do not smile and nod and say hello good devil, if you can be nice come stay with us! I would probably tell him to get the hell back to hell. I honestly believe that in order for these laws to work you need a strong court system to try any disputes. Otherwise frank, in this lovely nation, would be gone. Even God himself allows a person to have his own opinions.

If joe blow gives me the bird on the way to work, and i get pissed off and am grouchy all day because of it, who is at fault? Can i control joe blow? make him keep both hands on the wheel? make him feel happy and not angry with me on freeway 101? No, thats wrong, i cannot control someone else. What i can control is the way i react. Your jails would be full, and your country empty. Its human nature to hate and love, the accusations against others would be endless, unless there was a way to live peacfully with eachothers emotions.

You also have not mentioned a belief system. You have to be united in thinking in order to survive as a nation. In order to think you must believe something. Belief systems are the strength of any nation. Perhaps such a system would better equip your united peoples to be loving and accepting towards eachother?

Personally I think there should be a law that if you dont want to follow the beliefe system then you can go start your own country. Then we dont have to control people. the whole point of being united is just that, being united, if someone wants to come in and piss and moan because they dont agree, or because they dont want to live by those laws... then GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. As long as the laws, and the people agree with the belief system then there should be a solid foundation for this country, and anyone who does not want to conform to the building standards can be rejected.

I agree with Ma's right to die with dignity. Although it should be the "right to die when natural life exspires" law. Just to keep people from dressing comatose grampa in his sailor suit, slapping a stogie in his mouth and pulling the plug to the tune of the national anthem.

oh also, in reply to the original question. I believe we all are a means to the end. And the end always justifies the means.

but on a personal note, i believe that in the end i will have been part of the solution

Amosunknown,

Welcome to the UPN!

This is exactly the type of response I have been hoping for. Some have done it in smaller detail and some in greater.

The laws were intentionally written as vague as they are because they left a lot to interpretation.

I understand totally the Hitler scenario brought in, however, when it was brought in earlier, it was done in a manner offensive to me and I got off track. For that, I apologize.

But fantastic ideas! Now, could you write up your submissions for discussion? Can you write the way you think the laws should read?

And yes, there is no belief system here (yet). What we have is Law Number 3. We believe in putting principles over personalities and doing what is right for the common good. Yes, very, very vague. But, that's where we start to thinking and writing our constitution.

I am getting excited about this scenario. It seems there are more of those that do want to find solutions! I think that is wonderful.

So, will everybody write up how they think their laws should be read? And remember, you just have to keep the UPN 3 in mind that you don't break them until the laws are amended, changed, abolished.

And oh yes, about the Right To Die With Dignity Act :wink: I have some very specific stipulations in mind for this. I don't want anyone using it to rid themselves of others, etc.)

Good points Amosunknown! Again, welcome citizen!

Momma Angel

Without moral fortitude it doesnt really matter what the laws are, how many there are, or how offten theyre amended. Without such fortitude all the citizens will live out of fear of breaking the laws, instead of following the laws because they believe in their principals.

For the sake of this "arguement" i say we base a belief system on the 'created-creator' set of principals, since in our world today this is the most comon form of religion. A firm yet sympathetic creator, with many principals to govern our citezens lives, and a liberal tendancy to forgive honest mistakes.

With a belief system the second law would come naturally, it would be ingrained in each citizen to act like their creator and be kind to others, quick to forgive, and soundly grounded in all other principals of kindness.
The first law would also follow on the heals of the belief system, along with the third, all nice and neat like little ducks in a row. So now our people will know why they are to follow the laws, now by example of their belief, and when a mistake is made, or a purposeful breaking of the law, they will know that their wrongs will be treated in the same manor that they also are taught to treat others. with understanding, and quick to forgive.

You will also need judges for your courts. I do not nessisarily believe that the laws should be written differently, because with a belief system their many meanings would be easily understood. But in order to maintain their integrity strong grounded judges to hear and deal with the people are needed. They should be people how time and again have been proven to follow and abide by the belief system and the laws, with aptitude and great multifacited understanding of the laws and the people. Judges who are not lead out of greed for positions of power, but instead indivduals who wish to serve their community at large, and to protect their way of life. These are not judges who disagree or wish to change the laws to read how they would like to apply them, but instead respect the laws. Also, these judges should be elected by the people, when their ability to perform their duity is at question the people should be allowed to vote on their removal or continuing service. They should NEVER be appointed by people already in positions of power.

I realize that there is a huge problem here with the concept of separation of church and state, but that is my point entirely. To be a united people we cannot be two. the people cannot be governed morally by church, and by laws of state at the same time, esspecially when these two will at some point begin to disagree. The people will become divided by their desire to please their faith, and also live according to the laws of the land. And again, i think that our country should be a 'revolving door' so to speak. So that we have no need to control people and make them conform to our nations standards, but instead allow them to seek what will satisfy them elsewhere, yet allow them to return should be come back void.

(iam not even going to bother spell checking anymore, the checker on this site sucks... lol, and my spelling his horrible, so just bear with me.)

Amosunknown,

I love the way your mind works. I fully intended (as moderator) to introduce three separate belief systems into our Nation once our Constitution is established. I would really like it it you could help me write up one of those belief systems based on what you have here.

We well need three totally differing views so in the future I will (as it appears in the posts) ask others to also write up a belief system. I am with you 100% on the moral fortitude!

Once we have our three belief systems (as we had our three laws) we can ask the UPN citizens to chose the system they would want to be part of and champion their choice. Of course, we will have those that won't want to choose a belief system and thus be the agnostics.

Anything that you feel needs to be in our constitution, please write it up and present it here in our forum. We can all discuss the submissions and then we will vote on them. Please keep in mind this is just an exercise to see if we, the people of the UPN, can stay leaning more toward finding solutions than pointing out or making the problems.

I agree with you on some much! I love the no one in power can appoint someone into power!

And yes, we will need judges. We will be electing them also. We're just in our infancy stages but I feel we have a pretty good start.

So, let's see those submissions folks! What do you want in our constitution?

Taking your 'age' into consideration (with all due respect to others over 69), I understand why you are not very tolerant of others my dear... :wink:
I cant say I've ever considered myself a 'coward' Franky boy, I just find you like the sound of your own voice (so to speak) which I find to be just a load of boring, babbling nonsense...

*My apologies for interrupting this discussion folks!*

Your laws are impossible to enforce since anyone doing so would be in violation of rule #2.

A society which requires indiscriminate respect loses its ability to control behavior by showing contempt and scorn for violations of social norms.

You cannot legislate respect. As someone else pointed out, respect must be earned. What you can legislate is politeness.

It would be virtually impossible to reach a consensus on what is "good" for your nation. So who makes the final decisions on rule #3, and what happens to those who do not agree? Are they forced to accept the will of the majority even if it is detrimental to them personally? Will they be thrown into jail for expressing politically incorrect opinions?

Unles everyone in your country is perfect I would be unable to abide by rule #2. Particularly when driving.

Okay...and why is that?




I'm not sure if you truly have never ever considered yourself a coward...I rather suspect this is a lie and that you are a liar as well as a coward...but...you most surely are doing what cowards do when they realize they are getting the worst of a debate. You are running away with your tail between your legs.

So!




Hey, no problem. We can all use the laugh.

is that it Franky Boy? your ego is letting you down, how dissapointing :wink:

Nothing wrong with my ego.

And somehow, I doubt that if there truly were evidence of me allowing my ego to let me down...you would be disappointed.

But as I said...you seem to enjoy stretching the truth. (Did I say that...or was I more forceful?)

poor deluded Frank a few toys missing from your attic I suspect.

Go 'way, boy. Go play in your sandbox. Leave discussion for adults.

tut tut tut Frank...no need to throw your toys :wink:

Hey, Gnat.

Are you getting help with those very impressive rejoiners...or are you coming up with those gems on your own?

play nicely Franky Boy

Don't go away mad, Gnat...just go away.

you slightly amuse me...I think I may stay awhile :wink:

What's the matter, Gnat...mommy not paying enough attention to you???

Okay...stick around.

I'll talk to you.

(But when I'm not around...and mommy won't give you her full notice, you might try holding your breath until you turn blue. That's been working for little ones your age for a very long time.)

...childhood trauma Franky Boy, that explains a lot about you:lol: